Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@
Author: Ed
Posted: May 23 1998 10:19 pm
Subject: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@
Dear Kevin and BMan -- I am really pissed...I wrote a really good piece at least a foot long on the new board in answer to you guys re the Anonymous CIA post. It vanished into thin air. I also did several test messages and they don't show up...I used my name and password right as far as i can tell. Do I need to use the password?
Anyway, briefly re the CIA thing:
I believe this is probably disinformation spread with an evil intent. It lacks too many specifics. Watch...if Anonymous is genuine he'll come back with some specifics of evidence. I doubt he will. I'd expect that in time former Scns will shoot holes in some of the claims. I'd guess one easy one would be for someone who was close to LRH in 1967 to show that there was no possible time he could have been imprisoned for 36 days.
Damn, I haven't been so angry in months, to waste 1 1/2 hours of the best writing I ever did like that. I'll do it again, maybe, if someone stimulates me to.
Bottom line, don't worry about this CIA thing. It has very serious outpoints.
Love, Ed
A
Author: Kevin
Posted: May 25 1998 11:08 am
Subject: Re: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@
In Reply to: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@ posted by Ed on May 23, 1998 at 22:19:53:Ed- same thing happened to me on my first coupla postings on the new DB. In fact, I usually don't see anything I add there until the next day, or even two or three days. It does get there, so keep that postulate, your work is not gone.
As far as that story went, it seems odd that you are dead-agenting it. Your viewpoint seems to generally be that RTC Scientology is corrupt to the core, and degrades its members and practitioners. Not the subject, it seemed, but the Management. I could have had a wrong impression, I suppose, but I thought it would be from a different position I would see this defense'o'Hubbard. That's good, though, shows me you take each piece of information apart, regardless of its orientation or source. What's true is what's true for you.
It is scary, though. For the same reasons that I posted at the DB.
Nuff sed
KGB :)
Author: BMAN
Posted: May 25 1998 03:29 pm
Subject: Re: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@
In Reply to: Re: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@ posted by Kevin on May 25, 1998 at 11:08:03:
Dear Ed,
That is really to bad, and I would very much like to read what you wrote that disappeared into cyberspace. .Damn!
If your in the mood, please write it again. This CIA subject needs to be discussed. I was surprised there were no
more follow-ups to the orginal piece.
As you know I would like verification, however, if this was true, it answers many questions and creates a whole new
scene. I have been doing a survey of people who have done OTIII to see if that level was real to them and if it ran
well.
The 2 answers I've gotten is that it did seem unreal, but when it was run it ran and both PCs got results.
That's all I've come up with to date. Anyone out there want to tells us your opinion of OTIII after having done the
level.
Look forward to your post.
M/L
Barbara
Author: Ed
Posted: May 26 1998 09:06 am
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@ posted by BMAN on May 25, 1998 at 15:29:14:
Dear BMan -- My apologies if a blank message got out ahead of this one. About the CIA, if my message doesn't
show up late like Kevin suggests, I'll do it again.
Now, to OT3! I've heard quite a few people say various versions of it didn't run, or there was nothing there, or they
made it up, etc., no one seemed to have any kind of substantial TA action and lasting win/gain from it.
When the OEC Volumes were first sold, and Vol. 7 was finished in late 1973, I had the job of writing to everyone in
the world who had bought a set to see where they wanted Vol 7. shipped to. There were 2200+ sets sold. One set of
50 (which got a volume discount) had been sold to Scn Orange County which had collected orders from long-time,
old-time, wealthy public types who mostly were not the usual poor staff members. Most had done OT levels. I was
impressed strongly by the lack of bubbling enthusiasm or uptoneness in their communication. I probably had too
glorified an idea of what OT3s were supposed to be like. It got me thinking and observant, and I noticed that the
Advance magazines of the time and other promo just had far too little in the way of OT success stories for the number
of people there were. The general strong pattern was that people did OT3 and disappeared into the general society
and shut up about their enthusiasm for Scn. Not all, a minority who were positive, energetic people stayed uptone like
before. It was clear that if OT3 was what it was promoted to be, there would have been a lot more positive comm
and excitement and these people would have been actively working to get others through OT3.
There were several people I knew back then who had done OT3 and so I assumed that underneath the surface there
was something different and unshakeable. Looking back, they weren't much different from other Scns except that they
had high status and respect. It was like if someone tells you that someone you see but don't know is actually a
Kennedy or a Rockefeller or royalty but on the surface they don't seem that special.
False Memory Syndrome: This is a very important and interesting subject. A book came out a few years ago. it was
stimulated by a case, a terrible injustice, where a cop in Shelton, WA, who was a very ordinary decent family guy,
happily married for a long time with four teenage kids, was accused by his daughters of sexual abuse. First one, then
the other. Each time either one was questioned, the story got worse and worse, and changed. There was never even
one fact in either girl's story that could be verified while many facts conflicted with known other facts. The "authorties"
in this fundamentalist town were outraged and kept an intense questioning going. The man said, very reasonably, that
he never would ever do such a thing, it was unspeakable, but he supposed that if he had, he wouldn't remember doing
it. So they kept asking him to try and remember. Finally he started remembering horrible things he had done to the
girls and he was deeply ashamed. Meanwhile the girls were interrogated the same way and they kept getting more
horrible stories. The man was convicted and sentenced to a long jail term.
Almost everyone around knew he hadn't done it and a terrible injustice had occurred. Lots of people tried to get it
fixed. It turned out that one daughter had watched a video about satanic ritual abuse put out by their church just
before she made her accusations, and the other daughter had been convinced by church people in some way (I'm
forgetting this) that she might have been abused. Finally an outside expert came and did an experiment. He met with
Ingram in his cell and asked him to try and recall a specific incident with a daughter which the expert described in
detail. Ingram tried, and after awhile, got it. But the incident was made up and never had happened!!
This proved that people could "remember" imaginary events. All it is is mislabeling a picture as a real memory when it
is just a mockup. The whole truth all came out with Ingram and his daughters and everyone was fine, except he was
stuck in jail because he had pleaded guilty.
False memory syndrome is where someone is intensely asked to remember something and in order to please the
authority, "remembers" things this way. This finding really shook up the field of sexual abuse and similar abuses
because the real cases and the false cases often are hard to tell apart and there are plenty of both. One last note: there
was an FBI person who said that they got reports of 20,000 deaths a year in satanic ritual abuse, babies sacrificed,
etc., but no one had ever found any evidence of all these dead and missing people really existing. I guess there were
just a small handful of real such cases.
So I'd say that's how OT3 works for most people, and the meter action and case effects would also be mislabeled
and actually something else technically than what Scn claims. I may be wrong, but I don't think many people got much
real TA or case gain out of it.
All the best, Ed
Author: Ed
Posted: May 26 1998 08:08 am
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: Anonymous/CIA/Discussion Board %$#@ posted by BMAN on May 25, 1998 at 15:29:14:
Author: BMAN
Posted: May 28 1998 03:47 pm
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by Ed on May 26, 1998 at 08:08:42:
Hi Ed,
I'll check the new DB (this wouldn't be degraded being?) next, but this is more inresponse to your last post here.
You've made an interesting observation as one would think, if the secrets to our enslavement in this so called prison
planet were so revealing and helpful, people would be screeming it off the rooftops.
Don't you think?
When I asked, via phone, one of my friends, she was hesitant, I took that to be because she's been bonded and
sworn and all that not to reveal, and I have to respect her hesitancy and her right not to tell me. She knows that I have
read this material and so that gives a different slant to it but I know, these old bonds are hard to break and did not
push her. But, believe me she was less than enthusiastic about this level. She said it ran. Well, TA is TA and I do
wonder, what the TA is/was coming from?I have also had this used against me when I was giving serveral staff
members a hard time about being there, me being there, one said, who had completed OTIII recently, that he would
not want to sit out there as a clear (I have not attested to this state, only orgin'ed) and not get on with it as he would
never wnat to face the in between lives area ever again without this data. I almost laughed in his face! First because I
do not like the spirtual freedon threat that is constantly being used but also because, to me that was absurd. I really
didn't know why, but I did in another sense. But, frankly, no one speaks about OTIII, in any fashion.
I do want to hear from Deep Throat again and I'd like more data. I'd also like to see your response and will go there
next and respond if it's there.
We do have some questions to hand and I hope some other people that have done this level speak out.
For now Ed,
Barbara
And PS: This false memory is very interesting and I've seen it work both ways as to abuse. Which I think the church
does, abuse, but anyway, in sexual abuse cases, I've seem young women get very mixed up about this too. and
interesting pheon. to say the least. Like something is suggested and they go for it and fill in the blanks because of ????
Author: Kevin
Posted: May 28 1998 05:00 pm
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by BMAN on May 28, 1998 at 15:47:45:
Hi, y'all
This doesn't seem a mystery to me. This seems to be DUB-IN. Engramic content coming out with distortions do to
Reactive Mind interference. Running R3R would seem to reduce the incident, and if it is not erasing, go earlier similar.
Dub-in is discussed in Science of Survival, p.85-86, under the Visio column:
"... Possibly the most exact borderline between sanity and insanity would be that between knowing that one was
imagining what had happened and not knowing that one was imagining. All recalls can become short-circuited
through the imagination, so that the 'I' is led to believe that it is recalling an actuality when really it is having furnished
to it from the memory banks an imaginary sequence. When ARC is very low on a case, usually below the 2.0 range,
the condition obtains with the case that many of his recalls, no matter how authentic 'I' considers them, are imaginary.
As an example of this, consider the person in an anger state who is recounting a conversation or a quarrel he has had.
People who are angry almost never tell the truth. People who have sunk to the covert hostility range become so
confused between reality and imagination that even their small talk is utterly untrustworthy, and yet these people may
believe they are telling the truth. This is a case of recall being short-circuited through the imagination and 'I' being
furnished imaginary data which is yet labeled as authentic data. Possibly the most flagrant breach of truth occurs in the
apathy range or slightly above it, where fear, mingled with grief, can cause the wildest perversion of recall."
This is just regarding fear and grief, nevermind sex, which lies at -6.0 on the know to mystery scale (p114,
Scientology: 0-8). Imagine the dub-in in sex, which normally is difficult to confront fully, nevermind enforced sex!
I don't have a copy of Dianetics to hand, but I remember that Ron went pretty heavily into dub-in handling and
handling lie factories, etcetera. This is how false memory could be handled. Personally, to me, it doesn't matter if the
memory is false or true, it only matters that charge comes off, the needle gets cleaned, and the person's tone comes
up. Which is why we have the priest to penitent relationship with our client- this data is not for use in punishment or
establishing guilt, only for establishing next action in an auditing session, and reestablishing the clients freedom on the
tone scale. When looking for reasons other than auditing, I would look for EVIDENCE. But this seems unimportant,
unless we are cops or judges or reporters. I treat everyone's recall and cosmology as subjective, and its truth or
untruth only matters to them, usually.
I think I am being repetitive. I mean saying the same thing over and over. Like a broken record.
Hope this helps:
KGB
Author: Ed
Posted: May 28 1998 08:58 pm
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by Kevin on May 28, 1998 at 17:00:53:
Dear Kevin -- In the Washington case that I mentioned, and it's a lot likt the OT3 situation, the guy was told, and
everyone concerned believed as a stable datum that we have "repressed memories". Experiences that are really
painful or horrible (bad overts) we repress the memories of. Therefore, when you're looking for something like that
and can't find anything there, try harder. The stuff that you will get the most relief from remembering is hardest to
remember.
Well, sort of. If a person really has something and it is a "reading item" it comes out pretty easily. If it's unreading, no
awareness of it or nothing really there at all, it is HARD to get. So everyone including Ingram believed he had to try
harder to find what wasn't really there.
So I think with OT3 and maybe most or all of the implant materials that Pilot is so fascinated by, there isn't really
anything truly reading on the substance of these old real or unreal incidents. If there is charge, I think most of it is
artifacts of Scn getting people to believe these things exist and are VITAL and one should dig in and confront them,
etc.....all such being eval code breaks! To tell people they have some specific thing in their case and go look for it,
never mind whether it is true or whether it reads on the meter, sucks.
Love, Ed
Author: Kevin
Posted: May 29 1998 09:03 am
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by Ed on May 28, 1998 at 20:58:20:
This comes down to Auditor Code, just as you said.
Audit the PC in front of you, that is the way.
IF there is no reading item, then it becomes interesting to decide what to do next: searching for anything is indeed
evaluative. Personally, I don't have enough hours in the chair to speak with intelligence. I would guess (here's the
mouth of ignorance) that one should consult the PC, as to what item should be taken up next, and steer him into any
reads he gets- although even this evaluates by assuming there is an item to take up next. I think most PCs are there to
get auditing, though, and doing that shouldn't harm them, as it is within their reality, or they wouldn't be in front of you
asking you to audit them!
KGB
Author: Ed
Posted: May 29 1998 07:03 pm
Subject: Re: False memory
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by Kevin on May 29, 1998 at 09:03:28:
Dear Kevin -- Righto....the bloody arrogant nerve of LRH to presume to know what any other person has in their
case experience! It isn't like some kind of science proved that we all have these implants. He did some research on
his own case -- may ot not have found anything real; he sure didn't make himself a happier healthier saner person
from whatever he researched. I think he was just looking for good stories to hook other people with.
love, Ed
Author:
Posted:
Subject: Re: False memory
BMAN on May 28 1998 15:42:09:
In Reply to: Re: False Memory posted by Ed on May 26, 1998 at 08:08:42:
Hi Ed,
I'll check the new DB (this wouldn't be degraded being?) next, but this is more inresponse to your last post here.
You've made an interesting observation as one would think, if the secrets to our enslavement in this so called prison
planet were so revealing and helpful, people would be screeming it off the rooftops.
Don't you think?
When I asked, via phone, one of my friends, she was hesitant, I took that to be because she's been bonded and
sworn and all that not to reveal, and I have to respect her hesitancy and her right not to tell me. She knows that I
have read this material and so that gives a different slant to it but I know, these old bonds are hard to break and did
not push her. But, believe me she was less than enthusiastic about this level. She said it ran. Well, TA is TA and I do
wonder, what the TA is/was coming from?I have also had this used against me when I was giving serveral staff
members a hard time about being there, me being there, one said, who had completed OTIII recently, that he would
not want to sit out there as a clear (I have not attested to this state, only orgin'ed) and not get on with it as he would
never wnat to face the in between lives area ever again without this data. I almost laughed in his face! First because I
do not like the spirtual freedon threat that is constantly being used but also because, to me that was absurd. I really
didn't know why, but I did in another sense. But, frankly, no one speaks about OTIII, in any fashion.
I do want to hear from Deep Throat again and I'd like more data. I'd also like to see your response and will go there
next and respond if it's there.
We do have some questions to hand and I hope some other people that have done this level speak out.
For now Ed,
Barbara
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