Free Zone America Forum 2001 : Whocaresaboutjohn?

Whocaresaboutjohn?

Free Zone America Forum 2001: Whocaresaboutjohn?

Whocaresaboutjohn?

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Archive through October 12, 2001 50 10/18 03:58am

Author: pj
Posted: Sun Oct 14 2001 02:32 pm

Virginia,

You are grasping at straws, even claiming and accusing that in this exchange of idea's I have been pushing Knowledgism !

While I haven't even mentioned the word Knowledgism !

How you are running around like a panicky roach when shining a bright light on it..

Jumping from one false accusation to the next, how your kind hates to be exposed, you are so creepy..

-pj-

Author: pj
Posted: Sun Oct 14 2001 02:38 pm

You are dragging old stuff into this like David Icke and so on, who is lame here.

Why don't be in PT and stick to the issues at hand ?

I have challenged you about recent statements, not about the David Icke incident of many months ago..

I have not taken issue with that, it is about the above (posts)..

Stop trying to change the subject and confuse things..

You are such a master of enturbulation and chaos..

We know you have this talent, so stop showing it off and face the issues..

-pj-

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sun Oct 14 2001 02:47 pm

Pj,

More squirming, stop lieing and get off the hook then.

"While I haven't even mentioned the word Knowledgism !"

You don't have to...

You know, how you take things I say, and call them "scio mentality", when I didn't mention scientology.

See? I don't have to say it's scientology for you to get the idea, same as you don't have to SAY Knowledgeism for me to know what ideas you are thinking with.

I repeat, you can dish it OUT, but you can't take it.

You said:
I have challenged you about recent statements, not about the David Icke incident of many months ago..

I say:

(raspberry sound) MANY MONTHS AGO? Nice inaccurate time sense there PJ, which was one of my points, you don't think in sequences (which include correct time) well.

You said:
I have not taken issue with that, it is about the above (posts)..

I say:

Again messing up the sequence. You tried to DO another David icke type setup, and got caught again, which is of course why I bring it up.

Later, have to get out in the garden before it gets dark,

Virginia

Author: FreeThough^2
Posted: Sun Oct 14 2001 04:47 pm

I have noted in this thread Virginia accusing pj of lying.

She says it again and again.

I have NOT personally noted where she caught him in a lie.

Maybe NONE of us are as smart as you, Virginia...or maybe you just think he is lying , and it is enough for you to repeat it. Saying something doesn't make it so

I bring this Up with you Specifically because YOU accused me of aligning with FZAO in another thread, when you claimed that I was siding with BB, when you accused him of being 1.1. This was based on You catching Tommy in a lie. At this point in my FZA career, i was still an eager lurker, but I was honestly looking for this lie you caught him in. I could never figure out WHAT you were talking about, so I took the whole incident to be a personal misunderstanding. Based on your communication with me, you have "positioned" me as being 1.1, when I was anything but... ( from enthusiastic, to Antagonistis, to Angry , to affectionate....all 1.1 you claim in a sort of OFF WITH THEIR HEADS type of proclamation....) Am I capable of being 1.1? You bet, its on the tone scale, i can mock it up and use it.) On the other hand If you are not deliberately writing posts frequently in a 1.1 style, I dont know other tone it could be....what other tone is hostile, with a slow sarcastic, Virginia-characteristic.....( smile )

So Virginia please point out exactly where he is lying ....And in the future, please be MUCH more specific when you claim someone is lying. And lets hope its not something trivial.....that kind of thing bores everyone to death...its anti-climatic.

Author: pj
Posted: Sun Oct 14 2001 05:20 pm

pj: "While I haven't even mentioned the word Knowledgism !"

>>>>You don't have to...

Oh I see, you took the liberty to read my mind then ?

Well, those must be your OTeas powerrzz (r) at work, I should have guessed..

Riiight, seeings' you have now officially reduced this discussion to the level of a kindergarten squabble..I think I'll get off this bandwagon now, think I made my point anyhow..

So, catch ya later alligator..

FreeThought;

>>>>I have noted in this thread Virginia accusing pj of lying.

I have also noticed Virginia constantly mentioning the fact that I am lying amongst the barrage of other accusations...

What we have here is a classical twisting and bending of facts and events, mixing up a lie and with communication of idea's and observations..

It's all in the game from a orthodox scio viewpoint, and Virginia holds on to those negative aspects of the Cof$ even if she is no longer officially a member.

In addition, she is also opposed to the whole consept of FZ as she constantly demonizes Knowledgism at every oppertunity which is one of the biggest and most successful FreeZone orgs out there..

On a personal note I can attest to the fact that the only decent sessions I ever received were performed by a Knowledgism auditor...

Anyhow, thanks for the support Freethought and nice to have you aboard..

-pj-

Author: RedFred
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 12:00 am

That article pj passed along is an example of Scholarly bunk. Academians don't get it. They must undergo more unlearning than most. Pj you might find some agreement with CoS outpoints but where is that going to get you? No offense intended but your own experience trumps "know about" everytime. Hang in there.

Author: pj
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 12:58 am

Hi Ed,

>>>>>Academians don't get it. They must undergo more unlearning than most.

In a lot of cases I'd agree, but with regards to scientology I think they are spot on..

The reason is their intelligence saves them from the claws of any cult..

I'll be the first one to admit that in my irresponsible youth my mind intelligince and common sense failed me badly or else I wouldn't have fallen prey to the scio scamm..

All this "unlearning" can get you in a whole lot of strife with this cult.

It uses it to kidnap your mind and your wallet, then leave you stranded..

"unlearning" often turns out to be trowing out the baby with the bath water, and it can happen both when entering as well as departing the cult..

On the way in you leave your common sense behind and on the way out one can tend to paint the whole experience black instead of recognizing the plus points in the spiritual lesson.

-pj-

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 04:08 am

Pj,
your welcome...but its illogical to slam "orthodox Scietology" for the behavior of a person "orthodox Scietology" Threw out? isn't it?....We dont really know if she used these kind of shenanagins in the church...But If she wasn't actually in a position of power in the SO?, Do you think the Church would put up with these kind of antics very long?.....Doubt It....

Author: pj
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 05:25 am

Hi Freethought,

What I mean with orthodox scientology is the trickery, totalitarian viewpoint and "the end justifies the mean" mentality...

It is born out of an accumilation of overts over many decades and have become part and parcel of the scio culture..

From the standpoint of "do not do unto others...." I oppose this behaviour..

It sounds a bit generalizing due to lack of time to go into specifics and elaborate more but that is the general idea and you can easily pick this up in the comm of Virginia..

The other thing is that in an environment outside of the cult where freedom of thought and speech is the norm, statements need to be backed up by solid arguements and facts, Virginia sees this place as a scientology org where this is unnecessary and things are supposed to be agreed to or else you are an agent of some kind.

Discussions are out as far as she is conserned, cause she pretty much seems to think she is source, thereby inviting challenges and commotion from others.

-pj-

Author: Virginia
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 04:59 pm

Pj,
your welcome...but its illogical to slam "orthodox Scietology" for the behavior of a person "orthodox Scietology" Threw out? isn't it?....We dont really know if she used these kind of shenanagins in the church...But If she wasn't actually in a position of power in the SO?, Do you think the Church would put up with these kind of antics very long?.....Doubt It....

Freethought said the above:

Ahhh, there we go, was wondering if freethought was going to go the same route as other agents, and yes, freethought did. Just like John, there's the "trump card" (they think), that alignment with the taken over Church with it's viewpoint in regards to me. Ties himself/herself right into the taken over Church in so doing.

Is it just me or do these guys seem to be getting stupider and stupider, Or, maybe is it just getting easier and easier for me to see their lies? Probably a little of both.

(freethought better check the file on John to see what came next-so freethought doesn't make the same mistake. BIG HINT-HELLOOO-you handlers asleep on the job or something?)

Oh well, they never listen, but I did notice that freethought melted down a lot faster to this point of using the above hoped for "trump card", than John did.

I must be getting faster at catching the outpoints and then pointing them out, for this to have happened this fast.

Cool!

Virginia

Author: RedFred not Ed
Posted: Mon Oct 15 2001 11:05 pm

pj - Are you saying you were scammed by CoS because you lacked common sense in your youth? Did you not have any or enough benefit to want to continue with your bridge? If not you might find ARS newsgroup more to your liking. V. cool!

Author: pj
Posted: Tues Oct 16 2001 02:22 am

Redfred,

>>>>>Did you not have any or enough benefit to want to continue with your bridge?

Do you think it is humanly possible to have had some gains and insights from using the tech and at the same time be apalled at the disagreeable behavioural patterns of others who are promoting this behaviour in the name of standard tech ? That therefore someone would have to publically disassociate from such an organisation/people ?

And that the negative behavioural patterns that we find questionable ought to be put to the test ?

And if those freedoms had been available to us in the cult, that there would probably not be a need for the FreeZone in the first place ?

So therefor is it "cool" to be knocking those freedoms ?

And it isn't a.r.s. material but they are FZ issues because the general consensus at a.r.s. is that the whole subject of scientology is bunk from A to Z, here in the FZ we give some of it the benifit of the doubt, but there are many viewpoints.

That doesn't mean I dont't enjoy posting at a.r.s. aswell every once in a while, as do many other FZr's.

-pj-

Author: RedFred
Posted: Tues Oct 16 2001 10:41 pm

pj
No, you would have to have been sectioned off from apalling disagreeable behavior to make progress. In light of all that has happened the FreeZone is very necessary. As the FZ grows and CoS shrinks there will come a time of reconciliation. Perhaps not that far away should Virginia's postulates prevail.

Author: pj
Posted: Wed Oct 17 2001 12:50 am

>>>>>Perhaps not that far away should Virginia's postulates prevail..

Tell me Red, Do you see Virginia as source or something ? Have you no mind of your own ?

>>>>>As the FZ grows and CoS shrinks there will come a time of n.

Unbelievable ! Do you really think that the Cof$ will ever give in to the FZ ?

That is outragious, there is no way the Cof$ will accept this small group of what they consider squirrels..

And what makes you think the Cof$ is shrinking ?

As long as the Cof$ lies about its statistics who will know how many members there are ?

And why would you want to reconciliate with a bunch of criminals ?

Anybody who goes back into the Cof$ and has been part of a squirrel group has to do an SP amends cycle, that consists of efective wiping out and destroying the squirrel group you had been a part of..

I think that is why Virginia is acting the way she is and why she is calling everyone who doesn't agree with her an agent..

-pj-

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Wed Oct 17 2001 05:39 am

hi pj,
you said,
"where freedom of thought and speech is the norm, statements need to be backed up by solid arguements and facts. Virginia sees this place as a scientology org where this is unnecessary and things are supposed to be agreed to or else you are an agent of some kind. "...I think this may be one of the most intelligent staements you have ever placed on the board...spot on, both as a criticism of the Cos, and Virginia's actions...

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Wed Oct 17 2001 05:55 am

V u said, ""trump card" (they think), that alignment with the taken over Church with it's viewpoint in regards to me.

Unless your goldenrod, has some red herring on it, some secret u are hiding, i would obviously not consider it a "trumpcard" . Interesting that you do. In my experience gold issues are often reserved for fiction...kind of like posts by yourself.

Your new attempt at plot development is weak though..."Ties himself/herself right into the taken over Church in so doing. " I am tied into nothing, but I perceive a web of slander next to me, looks like you are there, trying, yet failing to net me....and you will continue to fail at that.
V :"is it just getting easier and easier for me to see their lies? "
no, its getting easier for people to se the truth about you that's why they same items keep coming up,
You are actually just getting more and more comfortable making up lies, deceptions,innuendo and fiction, and calling it true.

Author: pj
Posted: Wed Oct 17 2001 07:10 am

>>>>>I think this may be one of the most intelligent staements you have ever placed on the board...spot on, both as a criticism of the Cos, and Virginia's actions...

Tks FT,

I think that Virginia must have gotten herself booted out of the Cof$ or left..

The point is the Cof$ has not left her, in fact she figures she ought to set up a branch office of it right here on the FZA with herself in charge ofcourse..

So as soon as you voice your opinions here she basically thinks it is a comment on her organisation and must act on it.

She and her following gang up on everything which is not 100% in line with the Cof$ teachings and that means she goes after John, PJ, Feethought and I just noticed she was after Tom for using what she calls a "false bridge", and there are many many others she "corrects" all the time..

She is also critical of Knowledgism, not willing to accept that in the free world outside the barbed wire, electrical compound fences of the cult people can make up their own minds as to what works for them and what does not.

Essentially she accepts only the tech of the terrorist organization called the Cof$..

Just the thing a lot of people want so badly to get away from!

Also not recognizing that the FreeZone comprises of many different viewpoints, and that outside out of a cult environment people are free to have and communicate different viewpoints then the Cof$ viewpoint..

Because a lot of us know to where that Cof$ "tech" leads...you got it! a horror movie scenario..

-pj-

Author: Virginia
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 12:33 am

Anybody who goes back into the Cof$ and has been part of a squirrel group has to do an SP amends cycle, that consists of efective wiping out and destroying the squirrel group you had been a part of..

I think that is why Virginia is acting the way she is and why she is calling everyone who doesn't agree with her an agent..

---Pj said above

ROTFL, somebody (PJ) been asking "somebody"(name deleted) what to DO about Virginia.

Oh dear oh dear.

Too bad they didn't give you an idea that hadn't been tried BEFORE.

See, you couldn't think of your own lie, so you went and used "somebody" else's.

There's another lie for PJ, you going for breaking freethought's record here?

'Sides, you saved me a post, Freethought was looking for where you lie, and there's one right there (above).

Thanks Pj!

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 12:43 am

No other posts needing an answer (especially freethoughts), just same old same old as freethought twists and turns and deludes theirself into thinking they have "got" somewhere by gaining an ally with PJ.

A couple points though, Freethought does seem to be having some difficulty understanding what is the difference between lie and truth.

Most of freethoughts posts are lies, but freethought tries to present them as truth, and then calls posts where there is truth, LIES.

This is classic Intel stuff, not to mention a case phenomena as well.

DID Freethought even leave the Church?

Why on earth WOULD Freethought, when he/she fits in so well with the "El Takerovers"?

I think I will call him/her UNfreethought,working together with others to make the REAL definition of freezone, into the UNfreezone, as Mike calls what it is being worked towards.

Author: pj
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 01:03 am

>>>>There's another lie for PJ

Can somebody tell me what the lie is ?

Does anybody understand what the heck she is talking about ?

-pj-

Author: shogun
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 01:48 am

Free thought, my friend (I consider you a friend, guy), here is an intersting story...take from it as you might :-)

My best pal in the world, Tommy, was involved with the church, briefly..they didn't deliver...so he moved on...to Filbert (he got a cal from him out of the blue..never heard of him..odd, no?) Anywhoo, he is the guy who "audited" stuff off me for 5 1/2 years before he hooked me up with Filbert and my auditing....

He had a friend in the church...and they used to (the 70's) bang girls...sometimes together....ok? So, after not getting com from his friend for many months...he gets a letter from him...in it he states that he must come back into the church...and "for him to continue their special and unique friendship, he (Tommy) must get his "golden rod" in order.." look at that com for a sec. ....His "golden ROD". Tommy repeated that part of the letter (on the phone, at 3 am) over and over and over...until it hit me like a ton of bricks...his friend was GAY. His "golden rod" that his friend "needed in order" was his dick. I laughed (getting stupidity off) for a long time.......interesting, no? Tommy wrote him back....his letter said "you cannot and will not have my golden rod"...that's it. That was the late 70's. He never got any com from his friend since then...

LOL :-)

Author: shogun
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 01:50 am

...just because you used the term "golden rod", are cool and smart. Thought you might see it for what it's worth, buddy. Enjoy ;-)

Author: shogun
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 01:52 am

"whocaresaboutJohn"? Who? Fogerty or Lennon? ;-)

Author: Virginia
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 03:55 am

Pj:

Here it is AGAIN:

Anybody who goes back into the Cof$ and has been part of a squirrel group has to do an SP amends cycle, that consists of efective wiping out and destroying the squirrel group you had been a part of..

--See, what you did is when saying "I think that: that refers to something before, or in a further place, in this case it means you are referring to something said elsewhere than in the sentence starting "I think that'. It's English Grammar.

So, if you were to fill in what the word THAT is standing for (which would be the correct understanding of your sentence), and do your grammar in a more clear form, it would read like this:

I think anybody who goes back into the Cof$ and has been part of a squirrel group has to do an SP amends cycle, that consists of efective wiping out and destroying the squirrel group you had been a part of, so I think this is why Virginia is acting the way she is and why she is calling everyone who doesn't agree with her an agent..

So now it is more clear, you can see that what you have done is to SAY that I am trying to wipe out and destroy the squirrel groups, and try to get back in the church.

Now THAT is what is called a LIE PJ.

As in, not TRUTH.

I am not doing any of what I do, to "try to get back in the church".

So, either take responsibility for your lie, and retract it, or be known as a liar, in regards to me.

Which would be three times now, minimum.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 03:57 am

cut and paste oopsie to post above.

This:
I think that is why Virginia is acting the way she is and why she is calling everyone who doesn't agree with her an agent..

Should be right under this:

Anybody who goes back into the Cof$ and has been part of a squirrel group has to do an SP amends cycle, that consists of efective wiping out and destroying the squirrel group you had been a part of..

Virginia

Author: pj
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 04:31 am

Virginia,

>>>>>So, either take responsibility for your lie, and retract it, or be known as a liar, in regards to me.

First of all a lie means saying something you KNOW to be an untruth, or else it would being spreading incorrect data and not a LIE, there IS a difference..

What I said was "so I think this is why Virginia is acting the way she is and why she is calling everyone who doesn't agree with her an agent"..

I THINK, it is a gut feeling or a thought, an idea...

You can say I don't agree but you can't call it a lie.

The anatomy of a lie is different..

-pj-

Author: Tanya C.
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 01:50 pm

While there is a difference between spreading incorrect data and a lie, spreading incorrect data can be equally devastating as spreading lies.

For example, one could say that you covertly audited another individual with the purpose of impersonating him. Or that you employed black magic in an attempt to harm someone. One could even give 'proof' of the accusations, in the form of dates, such as the 3rd march 01, among others, for the first, or the 10th of march for the second. Or that you were spotted going through someone's private notes in order to use the data against him on the 16th august. Or that you covertly audited someone in order to gather data to restimulate and suppress that person, on several occasions.

While it may be difficult (or not) to actually 'prove' such claims, they could be quite destructive for the individual thus blackened. So I'm not claiming any of these. But you get the idea and you know whether it is a cat in a bag or not.

Cris

Author: Virginia
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 02:51 pm

Cris,

Great response to PJ.

Enough said.

Virginia

Author: CitizenCain
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 06:51 pm

Isn't it ironic. The topic of discussion here is called "Whocaresaboutjohn?". John has left and here we are still caring for him.

Author: Worsel
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 08:09 pm

Cain wrote
> Isn't it ironic. The topic of discussion here is called "Whocaresaboutjohn?". John has left and here we are still caring for him.

Ironic? Try repetitive. All I see these days is some sort of comm going on about/against black pr, enslavers, ops, agents, handlers, lies, implanters, positioning, cover stories, intel, dupes, etc on almost every thread. Yawn.

Author: yotomigo
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 09:39 pm

Well, there is alot of that attacking/defending going on, but if you look around there are quite a few threads and posts that have some real great wins and information in them. I mean something obviously is working well for some people. I came here in search of spiritual gain and truth myself. I don't think you can find it just by reading it and discussing it. It can be a starting point, though. But at some point, and the sooner the better, you just have to actually do something, get your hands dirty, put elbow grease into it.

Author: RedFred
Posted: Thur Oct 18 2001 10:20 pm

pj-
Wow! did I ridge on the idea of doing an amends cycle. Ha ha thats funny! I didn't even think of that. You're right, CoS would't merge with the FreeZone, but that's only present management. What if there was a coup, and our innocent hard-working brothers and sisters were liberated? Now wait, before you roll on the floor laughing reflect upon the fact that a coup has already occurred once. A well thought out plan with OT intention behind it and who knows, it could happen again.
Instead of being defensive and taking potshots at Virginia you should have a look at the material she has graced the web with.

Author: pj
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 12:58 am

Hi Redfred,

>>>> A well thought out plan with OT intention behind it and who knows, it could happen again.

I won't be sarcastic but that idea is next to impossible, I'll give you some reasons why...

1) The midget lives in a fortified bunker at Hemet in the Californian desert under constant surveillance by armed Sea-org goons.

2) All his cronies are also covering the highest top posts on the Sea-org command channel, so it would have to be a massive operation with military capabilities..

3) His whole family is also posted at Int management, except his father but he has sisters (plural until one committed suicide) there and several brothers there..

4) The previous coup was "a piece of cake", the Sea-Org was not as well organized as it is today, David Mayo, the C/S International at the time and the person chosen by LRH to carry on after his death was essentially a TECH terminal and wasn't well enough "Hatted" on Admin matters like taking care of his his own personal security within the cult structure.

5) Secretly a large coalition had already been in the making internally to knock David Mayo off his throne as they had done with ElRon himself by bumping him off. It was only a matter of carrying it out.

6) David Mayo, LRH's personal auditor was put in front of a kangaroo court, systematically Black PR'd to hell and back then shipped off to the nearest RPF camp, out of which he managed to escape just in time to save his life.

7) Fear is a factor which plays an even bigger part in the scio cult then it did under Ron so I doubt if people would even have the nerve to even think of the idea on the "inside" of the cult..

8) It would take some heroic people and the Scio doesn't have very many of those..

So the coup is gonna be a hard act to follow under current circumstances in which the cult operates today, with security camera's covering every square inch of most Int mgt buildings.

-pj-

Author: Scnstudent
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 02:04 am

on a revolt in the CofS:

In the early 1980`s, when RTC cracked down on the mission network, sucking their finances with the "finance police", 3/4 of the missions went bankrupt, 1/4 declared independence.

RTC seems to be somewhat less surpressive now as it was in the early 1980`s. That lessens the willingness of the members to revolt.

However, a revolt does not necessarily have to start in the top.

The loyalty of the staff exists as long as they view RTC as valuable. And RTC does at least a few things right.

If there was an acceptable alternative for the Standard Tech adherents, like FZAO or RON`s org, they may compete with the CofS fringe branches, like local orgs and missions, and cause the staff and public to switch allegiance.
The turnaround may come slowly, with the CofS junta being slowly isolated.
But if that kind of a process starts gaining momentum, it is hard to predict what will happen. RTC may lash out, and that may cause several things.

Problem is that the current junta holds the comm lines. Many scientologists do not know that a freezone exists.
If the outside critics were a bit more responsible, instead of being hard-core religion haters that promote prozac, electroshocks and brainectomies as an alternative to Scientology [exceptions exist] , they could help provide commlines, but as they are now, I don`t think they have much credibility among Scientologists.

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 02:59 am

Scn Student<

Excellent points, I think somewhere it is discussed by LRH, the power of an idea.

And an IDEA with OT INTENTION behind it (quoting red fred a bit here), would be unstoppable. One person, then another, then another.

I have read a reference where LRH calls it the wave that is how the planet will be handled, (ie: fully restoring one person, then another, etc.-loosely paraphrased).

Scientology will be restored to it's full integrity, and the wave to handle the planet is building.....

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 03:07 am

Pj,

Preaching "dangerous environment" are ya?

too many big scary monsters in the environment of the taken over COS?

for YOU maybe, but we aren't all cowards and "bored" bourgeusie (spelling) yawning on the sidelines,taking random potshots, like you and others.

I know I am not bored with the bigger game at all, I am quite enthusiastic about ending the game of enslaving beings, and playing the game of freeing them. Nor am I unwilling to do the right thing, despite "fear", (that's called courage for those of you unfamiliar with it).

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 03:08 am

Cain,

LOL re thread topic..

Virginia

Author: Scnstudent
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 09:17 am

Virginia: I do not think "OT-intention" is enough.

Every rebellion causes a lot of destruction and waste.
People must be convinced that they gain something by rebelling. And gain enough to overcome conservative tendencies.

It was said that the Soviet Union would never have collapsed if the West had not existed. The Russian people would simply have thought that their bad economy was the best economy possible. It was the wealth of the West that showed that a better economy was possible.
The biggest, and maybe only force towards a reform in CofS would be a prosperous, ethical and highly visible Freezone organization.

Also Scientology must be in quiet times. If SPs in the local government are campaigning to have Scientology made illegal, as is done in some European countries, members will close ranks against the bigger threat.

Author: pj
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 09:30 am

Virginia,

>>>>>for YOU maybe, but we aren't all cowards and "bored" bourgeusie (spelling) yawning on the sidelines,taking random potshots, like you and others...

Virginia, call it what you want and elevate yourself to the status of HEROE for all I care..

But your plan to boot out the Cof$ management is ludicrous..

Like you and which army ???

And I am realistic not a coward..

I'd like to see you do 6 yrs of C-org like I did..

Then you might think twice about calling people cowards..

Sure it was stupid, but at least I put my goddamned money where my mouth was, luckily I was young enough to recover fully from the insane experience..

You are all about bla-bla-bla-bla..

-pj-

Author: Rudy
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 11:04 am

yotomigo,

As usual, very good post. How is your auditing going with Rey?

Author: Rudy
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 11:29 am

Worsel,

>>>"Ironic? Try repetitive. All I see these days is some sort of comm going on about/against black pr, enslavers, ops, agents, handlers, lies, implanters, positioning, cover stories, intel, dupes, etc on almost every thread. Yawn."

I know exactly how you feel! From my experience, as I go up the bridge,it is sort of 'bittersweet' to discover that with all the increased awareness and ability gained is the knowledge of the game we are in and who the players are. With that personal expansion, I have also increased my responsibility for the game and the players, despite how unpleasant that may be at times.

The important thing is that I and those around me are winning everyday with the use of the tech that a lot of us are daring to defend, and some are desperately trying to stop. Hope you are winning too.

I have enjoyed your contribution to this forum, and hope you continue to do so.

Author: Worsel
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 12:06 pm

Rudy wrote

> I know exactly how you feel! From my experience, as I go up the bridge,it is sort of 'bittersweet' to discover that with all the increased awareness and ability gained is the knowledge of the game we are in and who the players are. With that personal expansion, I have also increased my responsibility for the game and the players, despite how unpleasant that may be at times.

I understand. I too am in this for the long haul.

> The important thing is that I and those around me are winning everyday with the use of the tech that a lot of us are daring to defend, and some are desperately trying to stop.

I also realize this. I just disagree that this board is filled with agents/handlers/implanters/enslavers.

> Hope you are winning too.

Yes I am, thanks.

> I have enjoyed your contribution to this forum, and hope you continue to do so.

Well, I wouldn't call it a contribution, necessarily. But thanks for the thought. I just stopped by and lurked occasionally, then decided to post occasionally.

Author: basicbasic
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 01:56 pm

Hi scn Student,

If there was an acceptable alternative for the Standard Tech adherents, like FZAO or RON`s org, they may compete with the CofS fringe branches, like local orgs and missions, and cause the staff and public to switch allegiance.
The turnaround may come slowly, with the CofS junta being slowly isolated.
But if that kind of a process starts gaining momentum, it is hard to predict what will happen. RTC may lash out, and that may cause several things.
BB
I loved your posts. Ha! That means I agree with you.
You describe what FZAO is doing. And I presume ROs. Your extrapolation of effect of that was I thought very perceptive. I believe you have described the best possible avenue for reform.

Hope you post more
bb

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 04:49 pm

Worsel said:

"I also realize this. I just disagree that this board is filled with agents/handlers/implanters/enslavers."

Disagree all you want Worsel, that won't change the truth.

And if you are in this for the long haul, you need to get your confront of evil up, a bit higher.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 04:56 pm

Pj,

I'd like to see you do 6 yrs of C-org like I did..

**Okey dokey, I did 4 and 1 1/2 years in the Sea org, at upper management level no less, right in the thick of things from 1978-1983, at FLAG, which is where most of upper management was, RIGHT below CMO INT/WDC etc, which was management's only seniors.

Burned your own behind going out on that limb of approach, didn't ya?

So, now, per YOUR rules, I don't need to think twice before calling someone a coward.

Like you.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 04:58 pm

Scn Student:

I understand, and don't necessarily disagree.

And BTW, BB is Div 6 for FZAO, so just be aware of that fact, in regards to his comm to you.

It would probably not be a problem, except FZAo is rather a hotbed of lies, false terminals, and false bridge.

Much like what is being done in the Church.

Virginia

Author: pj
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 05:48 pm

>>>>Burned your own behind going out on that limb of approach, didn't ya?

Nope, looks like I still beat your ass by about 6 months...

And I didn't get to have a nice little vacation in between like you seemed to have had..

I did um straight, 6 yrs in one go..

And b.t.w. calling ex c-org members cowards is pretty low, even by your standards..

-pj-

Author: Virginia
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 05:54 pm

Pj, well that was interesting, I left an opening (on the intention line-not words), you fell right in it.

You know, your life would be simpler if you would stop lieing and getting caught in your mental machinery.

Ever applied the enemy formula and found out who you REALLY are?

Or do you lack the courage to do so?

Virginia

Author: Worsel
Posted: Fri Oct 19 2001 06:02 pm

Virginia wrote

> And if you are in this for the long haul, you need to get your confront of evil up, a bit higher.

Nothing lacking in my confront of evil. Why would you say that? You think you are the only one around who knows the planetary (or WT, for that matter ) scenario? Do you think a person has to write scathing posts about others all the time to show that one's confront of evil is up? Go away and play with your agents, Virginia. Yawn.

Author: pj
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 08:02 am

Well said Worsel, our confront of evil IS up, that's why we are putting Virginia and her fundamentalist scio rhetoric to the test..

-pj-

Author: Rudy
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 08:29 am

Worsel,

>>>"I also realize this. I just disagree that this board is filled with agents/handlers/implanters/enslavers."

I have total reality on your view point. I will give you another viewpoint to look at it if you wish. I am not commenting on the reality of the matter or your right to your opinion, but rather on the 'concept' itself.

My question would be: In light of what the implanters did/do in the church and knowing their intention to suppress the tech in the field as well, why WOULD'NT they be here on this bulletin board? And for that matter, why COULD'NT this board be filled with them?

I personally don't think that it is 'filled' with them. I know there are beings here at various experience, reality, and tone levels, and I have mine. However, my perception and reasoning tell me there ARE, at least, some here. I am also aware that one of the implanters' advantages is 'the denile of their existence'. This helps me with 'the reasoning', when my perceptions fail me and keeps me open to the possibilities.

My reality level is pretty high but I am also thankful to others with more experience and perceptions than me to help keep me on my toes!

Author: Worsel
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 10:41 am

Rudy wrote

Worsel,

>>>"I also realize this. I just disagree that this board is filled with agents/handlers/implanters/enslavers."

> I have total reality on your view point. I will give you another viewpoint to look at it if you wish. I am not commenting on the reality of the matter or your right to your opinion, but rather on the 'concept' itself.

That's fine. I realize when someone is expressing their opinion. I don't take these things personally, or get all bent out of shape about other viewpoints.

> My question would be: In light of what the implanters did/do in the church and knowing their intention to suppress the tech in the field as well, why WOULD'NT they be here on this bulletin board? And for that matter, why COULD'NT this board be filled with them?

Of course "they" are on this board, and on every NG etc that they can get on. As for the board being "filled" with them, I say no. MOST people on this planet are heavily, and unknowingly for the most part, duppressed/implanted/aberrated/pts etc so as to NOT be looking for any "spiritual enlightenment" in the first place - and as we both know, auditing and TRAINING handle that. But auditing/training like everything else is a gradient. Most folks if hit with "alien bodyless beings are controlling your every thought, hahahahaha" would at least flinch, if not decry the source of such a comm. Not to mention that it is restimulative to those folks with a different level of "experience, reality and tone level."

> I personally don't think that it is 'filled' with them. I know there are beings here at various experience, reality, and tone levels, and I have mine. However, my perception and reasoning tell me there ARE, at least, some here.

So, we are agreed.

> I am also aware that one of the implanters' advantages is 'the denile of their existence'.

Of course - basic SP tech.

> This helps me with 'the reasoning', when my perceptions fail me and keeps me open to the possibilities.

As in constant alertness, yes.

> My reality level is pretty high but I am also thankful to others with more experience and perceptions than me to help keep me on my toes!

If you mean by that the constant barrage that goes on here, I disagree. I think someone has an MU, thinking that WILLINGNESS to fight back means MUST LITERALLY ATTACK. I don't see that as a higher reality level than what you seem to have.

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 03:54 pm

Pj said (and blew his cover AGAIN)

Well said Worsel, our confront of evil IS up, that's why we are putting Virginia and her fundamentalist scio rhetoric to the test..

--

Hmm, so pj is positioning Scientology in it's integrity, as EVIL, as well as his usual calling me that.

Thanks for the "hot tip" and verification in the third universe PJ as to what nonexistent "side" you are actually on.

(shhh people out there, we are NOT supposed to KNOW there is a game going on-Pj thinks we are all as blind as he is)

Well maybe that USED to be the case...but things change.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 03:58 pm

Pj said (and blew his cover AGAIN)

Well said Worsel, our confront of evil IS up, that's why we are putting Virginia and her fundamentalist scio rhetoric to the test..

--

Hmm, so pj is positioning Scientology in it's integrity, as EVIL, as well as his usual calling me that.

Thanks for the "hot tip" and verification in the third universe PJ as to what nonexistent "side" you are actually on.

(shhh people out there, we are NOT supposed to KNOW there is a game going on-Pj thinks we are all as blind as he is)

Well maybe that USED to be the case...but things change.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 04:01 pm

Worsel said:

That's fine. I realize when someone is expressing their opinion. I don't take these things personally, or get all bent out of shape about other viewpoints.

--and INTENDED non verbally, **Like Virginia**

Got it Worsel.

I know you "need" to attack me. But, as I mentioned to you before, you really should stop listening and acting on thoughts that aren't yours, or let them ride your intention line. It ain't invisible you know. "something there says nothing here", as it were.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 04:11 pm

Worsel said:

That's fine. I realize when someone is expressing their opinion. I don't take these things personally, or get all bent out of shape about other viewpoints.

--and INTENDED non verbally, **Like Virginia**

Got it Worsel.

I know you "need" to attack me. But, as I mentioned to you before, you really should stop listening and acting on thoughts that aren't yours, or let them ride your intention line. It ain't invisible you know. "something there says nothing here", as it were.

Virginia

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 04:13 pm

Hey Rudy!!

If you mean by that the constant barrage that goes on here, I disagree. I think someone has an MU, thinking that WILLINGNESS to fight back means MUST LITERALLY ATTACK. I don't see that as a higher reality level than what you seem to have.

Worsel said above.

Did you catch what Worsel just did there?

He just paralleled the same thing you had "felt", even said it similar.

Remember that? (was a while back).

As we have been discussing, see how the same "line" or "lines" are used over and over?

Worsel is definitely being influenced, no doubt about that, whether he "wants" to know it or not.

He also tries to establish 'agreement" between you and him, while on the intention line, he is "seperating me out" from that.

As if I EVER said in the first place that the board is "filled" (as in to the exclusion of all else), with 'ALL" agents dupes etc.

Never said it that way, nor intended it. But I do say, there are definitely a fair representation of such here, (worsel is acting like a dupe, we'll see where that goes), BUT, there aren't ONLY such as agents implanters dupes liars here.

Now you and I, AGREE on that, but remember, worsel uses an enemy line to try and seperate us on that point, ie: putting the subtle inference there that "I" say it is FILLED as in to exclusion with (fill in the blank)". Which is a LIE. That's what enemy line primarily is. LIES.

Whoever or whatever is influencing this guy thinks they are pretty tricky, but not tricky enough.

Worsel will assume the boredome pose on this soon, any time now.

Worsel has not answered why he cares so much about questioning Ron's org and CBR (that I have seen), and does not seem to be seeking services, so why the questioning? And why the attempting to align with you, Marianne, and Vast, and "unalign" with Me?

I give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

(smile)

Virginia

Author: Worsel
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 05:43 pm

Virginia

I don't see posters as being aligned with each other or taking sides. I tried to answer what was said to me by one poster. I have no intention of breaking up some alliance or other. As for not answering your questions and how bad that is supposed to be, like I said I am not beholden to answer you. I know you will find more outpoints and how I am being controlled and have a low confront of evil, etc etc, in anything I say. But like I also said, I'm not going to play your game. There are MUCH bigger games afoot than oneupmanship with you on a message board. I find freethought's and pj's and Tommy's (etc) posts just as boring when they attack you. I find Vast's posts quite interesting. I enjoy reading the wins of PCs and students.

Now, please feel free to reinterpret anything I just wrote.

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 20 2001 09:18 pm

Worsel,

I receive your communication, exactly as it was INTENDED.

You are working on building a cover (but for some reason don't seem to know this is what you are doing), a cover which consists so far of bored spectator who "doesn't take sides", and is here "to read about the wins of pcs and students".

Got it.

This all done while actually demonstrating low confront of evil, and working at seperating Vast and I, (primarily).

Asking questions while not intending to do anything (about RO),etc. etc.

Getting PJ to "be upset" about you, etc. etc.

As you said, I will extend the same courtesy to you, (although I myself am not interested in what you offered), but you seem to like the idea.

So, feel free to reinterpret anything I just wrote, as well.

And probably as you will.

Won't change anything, like the truth, but you do what you will.

You have yet to answer where are you on the bridge, what bridge you are on, and whose is it, you do realize that I'm sure.

I haven't forgotten that particular deliberate omitted on your part.

Comm lags can be long, so that's ok, it'll flatten eventually.

Virginia

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 07:50 am

Worsel,
I saw Virginia's attack on you coming from far away...When it gets worse, a contant barrage of characrter assasination and black pr, as you know it probably will, remember that if you disagree with this kind of behavior you need to say so LOUDLY, or it is viewed as OK or correct.

If you decide to speak out against her attacks on you and others, There is a sytem in place to do so. You may post your KR's ( or not ) on We Accuse Virginia.

This is not aligning yourself with a group ( unless you think so ). As for allying yourself with Virginia ( or not ) you never had much of a choice as she labelled you ENEMY from day 1. Your attempts to communicate with others, i.e Vast, Rudy, or anyone theta on this board that she "likes" will be cut and enterbualted by her if you or those other terminals let it continue. One only can hope the other people tire of their comm lines cut and interefered with.

I , myself, do appreciate you on this board. And it is Ok for you to disagree with me. I will not assume you are an 'agent' a 'liar' or any of the nuttiness that passes for eval here. Remain 'non-aligned' or not as you wish. But merely by standing your ground and not accepting her craziness toward syourself, you DO forward the purpose of ETHICS on this board. Thank-you

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 07:52 am

Worsel,
I saw Virginia's attack on you coming from far away...When it gets worse, a contant barrage of characrter assasination and black pr, as you know it probably will, remember that if you disagree with this kind of behavior you need to say so LOUDLY, or it is viewed as OK or correct.

If you decide to speak out against her attacks on you and others, There is a sytem in place to do so. You may post your KR's ( or not ) on We Accuse Virginia.

This is not aligning yourself with a group ( unless you think so ). As for allying yourself with Virginia ( or not ) you never had much of a choice as she labelled you ENEMY from day 1. Your attempts to communicate with others, i.e Vast, Rudy, or anyone theta on this board that she "likes" will be cut and enterbulated by her if you or those other terminals let it continue. One only can hope the other people tire of their comm lines cut and interefered with.

I , myself, do appreciate you on this board. And it is Ok for you to disagree with me. I will not assume you are an 'agent' a 'liar' or any of the nuttiness that passes for eval here. Remain 'non-aligned' or not as you wish. But merely by standing your ground and not accepting her craziness toward syourself, you DO forward the purpose of ETHICS on this board. Thank-you

Author: Rudy
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 09:55 am

Worsel,

Sorry! I forgot to get back to you.

YOU SAID: "Of course "they" are on this board, and on every NG etc that they can get on. As for the board being "filled" with them, I say no. MOST people on this planet are heavily, and unknowingly for the most part, duppressed/implanted/aberrated/pts etc so as to NOT be looking for any "spiritual enlightenment" in the first place - and as we both know, auditing and TRAINING handle that. But auditing/training like everything else is a gradient. Most folks if hit with "alien bodyless beings are controlling your every thought, hahahahaha" would at least flinch, if not decry the source of such a comm. Not to mention that it is restimulative to those folks with a different level of "experience, reality and tone level."

This is a good point very close to one of my own viewpoints.

YOU SAID: "If you mean by that the constant barrage that goes on here, I disagree. I think someone has an MU, thinking that WILLINGNESS to fight back means MUST LITERALLY ATTACK. I don't see that as a higher reality level than what you seem to have."

I respect your viewpoint but no, that is not what I was referring to. I was saying that although I have a certain reality, I am thankful to be in a situation that I can,in general, observe and learn or discard anything from others with more experience or higher reality than mine that benefits me and my purpose. It is very easy to get stuck by one's fixed ideas, opinions, and reality level, and I am constantly challenged by the OTs I live with and are in comm with. Being one those OTs I also challenge myself and them also.

Author: Worsel
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 12:49 pm

Rudy wrote

YOU SAID: "If you mean by that the constant barrage that goes on here, I disagree. I think someone has an MU, thinking that WILLINGNESS to fight back means MUST LITERALLY ATTACK. I don't see that as a higher reality level than what you seem to have."

> I respect your viewpoint but no, that is not what I was referring to. I was saying that although I have a certain reality, I am thankful to be in a situation that I can, in general, observe and learn or discard anything from others with more experience or higher reality than mine that benefits me and my purpose. It is very easy to get stuck by one's fixed ideas, opinions, and reality level, and I am
constantly challenged by the OTs I live with and are in comm with. Being one those OTs I also challenge myself and them also.

Thanks for clearing that up. I had thought you were referring to comm on this board. I agree with the above, and you obviously have a safe environ with these others, with a lot of granting of beingness going on.

Author: Worsel
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 01:02 pm

FreeThought wrote (twice, lol)

> ...remember that if you disagree with this kind of behavior you need to say so LOUDLY, or it is viewed as OK or correct.

I disagree. There's too muich LOUDLY going on this message board already. I don't write a post based solely on how 'others' will view. Is it a rule of usenet that if one doesn't LOUDLY protest, that one is automatically giving one's tacit consent?

> Your attempts to communicate with others, i.e Vast, Rudy, or anyone theta on this board that she "likes" will be cut and enterbulated by her

Get over it, man. This is a page on a screen where anybody can write whatever. Enturbulation is in the eyes of the beholder, so to speak. But I understand where you are coming from.

> I , myself, do appreciate you on this board. And it is Ok for you to disagree with me. ... Remain 'non-aligned' or not as you wish.

Thank you.

> But merely by standing your ground ... you DO forward the purpose of ETHICS on this board.

What it says at the top of the board is that you get what you validate. That seems like a good "purpose" to have in mind as one posts.

Author: VIrginia
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 02:18 pm

Rudy said: "...constantly challenged by the OTs I live with and are in comm with. Being one those OTs I also challenge myself and them also."

Worsel said:
Thanks for clearing that up. I had thought you were referring to comm on this board. I agree with the above, and you obviously have a safe environ with these others, with a lot of granting of beingness going on.

I say:

And I am one of THOSE OT's Rudy is in comm with, which Worsel just inadvertently complimented me by saying this:
"you obviously have a safe environ with these others, with a lot of granting of beingness going on."

The reason I say inadvertently complimented, is because Worsel in other posts has stated viewpoints about myself that are a bit, contrary, to the above.

And Unthought rose from the fire to support Worsel! UNthought is having problems reconciling that he/she is a DEAD agent. Unthought keeps trying to create the false realities already "done" by UNthought.

Virginia

Author: FreeThought^2
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 07:09 pm

Virginia says, "And I am one of THOSE OT's Rudy is in comm with, which Worsel just inadvertently complimented me by saying this:
"you obviously have a safe environ with these others, with a lot of granting of beingness going on."

The reason I say inadvertently complimented, is because Worsel in other posts has stated viewpoints about myself that are a bit, contrary, to the above. "

Thank-you Virginia for valiating what I was saying. This is just more of your strange attempt to 3-rd party someone new to the board. For some reason you don't seem to want Worsel have high ARC with Rudy or his group? What, are you afraid it might expand if you let it?
I am sure worsel knows you consider yourself "aligned" with Rudy, and may or may not have included you as he wished. We are all us, perfectly capbable of throwing compliments your way when you deserve them despite your "normal" behavior.

Author: Virginia
Posted: Sun Oct 21 2001 08:00 pm

Unthought, -the odd man out who can't quite track with what's happening.

As usual.

Virginia