Free Zone America Forum 2001 : Volcanoes

Volcanoes

Free Zone America Forum 2001: Volcanoes

Volcanoes

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Archive through July 31, 2001 25 08/02 11:50am

Author: flowrite
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 01:44 am

Journeyman
When I used the word truth I used in the human sense or Dianetic Axiom sense of correct time, place, form, and event from the location of the being experiencing the event. To aberrate a being the event would actually have to occur except if it is a false memory implant and in that case the event of the implant would need to be exposed not the phoney pictures. It is the only way AS-Isness can occur, (if you can't make a true copy you can't AS-IS). I apologize for sounding preachy.
It is of the utmost importance that the event actually happened otherwise all you are doing is running Dub-in and getting more deluded.

Confused
All we have to attend to is our relationship with life and how is it now. If you can sense entities and they are obstructing you then that is your item, here I agree with Journeyman.
flowrite

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 10:34 am

Confused: I understand that you want to know the truth about the past- however, my point is that you can only know your own perspective on the past. Other people's perspectives of the events may not indicate to you, or may have nothing to do with you.

As an example, take the JFK assassination. There is very little doubt that JFK is dead, or that he was shot through the head. That seems to be universally accepted, and can be stipulated as DATA. Aside from that, nearly everything concerning who might have done it, what weapon was used, how many weapons were used, etc. is open to interpretation. A lot of evidence has been described in many different places. For me, as a person who was born this time around after the event took place, it is merely history. I can develop an opinion of what took place, and I would be very happy if all the records were available to the public (but they aren't, and won't be). For resolution of my case, however, it is not important. Had I been standing there, and witnessed it, or watched it on TV, then perhaps it would be more relevant, as I might have had intentions that were thwarted by his death, restimulation caused by watching his head come apart, locks caused by similarities with Bobby Kennedy's death, or MLK's, or Malcolm X's, or John Lennon's. I would love to know the truth, just from a scholarly, upright citizen's perspective, but it doesn't change what factors I need to address to make case progress. If I discovered that I was JFK in a previous life, then it would certainly have more relevance to resolving my case, but I don't try to open my case by asking, "As JFK, who really shot me and why?" I just make progress through the grades, and other upper sections, and when I get a glimpse of an event in a previous life that clarifies some part of history which effects me, a real memory, then I open it up, inspect it, take the charge off, and that part of history becomes more real, and true, for me. However, if I then went around telling people that JFK was killed by the military industrial complex because I (as JFK) had signed an executive order which made the Vietnam war preparations illegal, and cancelled the authority of the CIA/Pentagon to conduct such operations in the future, even if this was true for me, it may be perceived as out-reality, or even straight up WRONG from their perspective. My job is not to educate people about history (from my perspective, or any other). I leave that to history teachers, hired by the government to reinforce the validity of their coup. That is the CRUX of my argument. History, objectively speaking, can only be defined in very broad terms. The further you go back in time, the less hard evidence there is to go on, that can be agreed on by all. You end up having to rely on memory, whether it is your own, or a recording made by others and carried forward by culture (culture only carries forward messages that it CURRENTLY considers valuable, from a perspective governed by the dominant interests in the CURRENT society). To me, history is simply a propaganda tool to validate PRESENT dominant forces, or to propagate a particular individual or group's viewpoint. It gives context to the present, but is not an absolute truth, merely a relativistic framework for evaluating the present. Events that are as far removed as 75 million years ago have very little evidence remaining at this point. Unclouding your track to the point where you can remember every event that happened to who you considered yourself to be from this point back 75 million years might be valuable, but trying to address it without first handling present conditions and goals seems rather out of balance.

Ach, I can't seem to be clear enough about this to communicate well.

Sorry.

kgb

Author: Rudy
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 11:08 am

Confused,

What is the need for a confidential e-mail? Do you think I am going to crawl through the computer and force you to leave the church? I just wanted our conversation more private from the list. Stuff that is particular to your case , and your situation. You are the one that is reaching, we are just responding with support for you.

Besides, you can open a Hotmail account if that would feel more secure.

Author: confused
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 11:21 am

Rudy,

I am not computer literate. I was told by another Scientologist that is inactive, but in good standing to never get involved in E Mail, as it can be traced and is stored in the computer. She reads and discusses on these boards, and I have decided to do the same.

My family has access to my computer and they are all computer literate. If my situation blows up and wouldn't put it past them to check into what I have been doing in the computer.

Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I am trying to look after myself.

I hope you understand.

Author: confused
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 12:02 pm

Journeyman,

You have the most interesting posts. Where are you on the bridge? Are you getting auditing that addresses what you are looking for. The materials the way they are presented at the COS are very planned out and sequenced. It seems that what you are looking for is a more flexible approach, even in the OT levels. What do you think of what Flowrite said about having to run out the actual event, not the pictures of the event? This would be very different than what occurs at COS.

Is there a group that audits to your specifications or do you audit yourself?

Are you aware of what Shogun is talking about? He put in a statement, but won't write back with more detail. Is what the church has really not the original data?

Also, even with all that you wrote above, I am still wondering if there is a rebuttal or paper written by the pilot or anyone else from the freezone that answers some of the OT3 issues et al that have been brought up by the critics. I know history is blurry at best, but the critics are basically saying that most of what Hubbard wrote about was a fraud and I am trying to find my way thru all of this and come out with more certainty.

You are spending your valuable time helping me through this and I truly appreciate it.

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 01:05 pm

"You are spending your valuable time helping me through this and I truly appreciate it."

Thanks for the validation, and the ack. It is very much along my purpose lines to help people who want help, and I am glad to be able to do so.

As for my case level, it is a debatable point. I have finished a Purif, attested to Clear, been sec checked within an inch of my life (I was leaving on a "Leaving Staff" routing form), done some OT I, and a lot of student auditing. The last official C/S I had was that I needed to go to FLAG for a CCRD, and I was given some issues to study regarding Natural and Past Life Clears at that time.

As for a group that audits the way I agree with, I support a group that uses Metapsychology, a discipline which closely mirrors scientology, developed by David Mayo (former Senior C/S International, Ron's personal auditor and the developer of NOTS, who was run out of the Church when Miscavige and company took over) and Frank "Sarge" Gerbode, a highly classed auditor and psychiatrist [not a drug-company/implanter advocate!].

For more information regarding their philosophy, check out

www.healing-arts.org/tir

TIR is Traumatic Incident Reduction, a process almost identical to R3R. They promote TIR in a way that CofS promotes Dianetics- it is an introductory process that has finer applications at higher points in their curriculum. They believe in cycling through their curriculum, which is equivalent to the Grades plus dichotomy (gpm/identity) handling and individuation handling (NOTS), as necessary. Many people can get a lot of gain from something equivalent to Grade 0, or whatever, after attaining higher levels of responsibility and awareness, so that the gains on lower parts of the bridge get deeper and more profound after doing the "upper parts".

I am not a person with a great deal of training behind me, but I have a lot of reading invested, and my life's purpose is to help people gain greater understanding and achieve their own created goals.

This fall, according to my Admin Scale, I will be completing a lot of training and co-auditing with Metapsychology, and I am hoping I can find someone here to co-audit with!

I have to run, now, to work. More later!

kgb

Author: Eternity
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 02:08 pm

Journeyman. You did OT 1? Was this from the internet or from the orhtodox church?

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 02:11 pm

No, I did not "do" OT I. I started OT I, but never finished it. It was not from the Internet, nor was it from the orthodox Church, although it was orthodox material. I'd rather not disclose the source, as I have no desire to get that person into trouble.

kgb

Author: Eternity
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 03:53 pm

So how was it then Journeyman?

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 06:54 pm

I didn't complete it. I don't know. It was not the correct action for me at the time. I believe a correction list would be the right place to start, for me, then a C/S interview, some Life Repair, and then on to the next part of my Bridge, as determined by a C/S, or technical director.

kgb

Author: mike
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 08:04 pm

Hi Kevin,

A little aside here. I noticed above (and I know you have said it before, but this time it rang a little bell) you say:

"The last official C/S I had was that I needed to go to FLAG for a CCRD, and I was given some issues to study regarding Natural and Past Life Clears at that time."

Weren't you at a Cl IV or V org? Why did you have to get your CCRD at Flag? Couldn't they handle it?

You also say:

"I am not a person with a great deal of training behind me, but I have a lot of reading invested, and my life's purpose is to help people gain greater understanding and achieve their own created goals"

I would like to validate this. Why? Because you don't say I need and want to get better. Even though I am sure you do. But you say you want to help others. What could be more noble?

Well done.

Mike
mike@fza.org

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 09:04 pm

Mike-

I was at a Class IV org, at the time. To my knowledge, they delivered through NED, and no higher, but I am not sure. The woman who made this declaration was a Flag Missionaire, who informed me that it had happened a few times at Boston Org, very near to my own cycle in time, that Clear's had been not acknowledged, not detected, etc., by the C/S. It could be that there was a tech mission happening to correct out-tech at my org, or that she was just trying to reg me off my org's lines to get me to Flag (ripping off a pc). I don't have enough data to make a definite statement.

As a further note, I recall that all of the people who went clear at our org went to Flag or ASHO for their CCRD, and Sunshine Rundowns, etc. I don't know why.

As to my statement of purpose, thank you for validating it. My purpose to help others is informed by enlightened self-interest, however. I know that as I help others go up the bridge, my certainty in the tech increases, and I am empowered by having more powerful friends.

As an analogy, when I was a kid, I played on a traveling soccer team, representing Rhode Island in national tournaments. I liked practicing by myself, doing dribbling drills, practicing feints and maneuvers, blasting the ball as far as I could with accuracy, etc. But it was always more productive to practice with a few friends, or the whole team. As a star halfback, I could effect the midfield, and help defend- but when the whole team was coordinated, I didn't have to cover every area, and I didn't overextend myself, and we won more games. I didn't shine so much, and lots of times others took the credit for putting the cap on drives that I was key to the success of, but WHO CARES! We won, and more importantly (yes, more importantly) we played fantastically, and had FUN!

I feel the same way about scientology. Concentrating on getting my own case handled leaves me surrounded on all sides by a turbulent environment, full of people trying to tear me down, even if they don't do so deliberately. By concentrating on handling their cases, I feel more causative, have more fun, and my environment becomes empowering, rather than barely survivable.

kgb

Author: curious about ...
Posted: Tues Jul 31 2001 10:51 pm

Kevin ie. Journeyman, is a good example that dedication, intention, purpose and OT abilities are not necessarily measured by a level on a grade chart. My respect to you.

Author: Rudy
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 02:32 am

In my experience case gain is always received on both sides of the meter. My intention to support other dynamics has consequently propelled me up the bridge and expanded my 1st dynamic much faster and with much more satisfaction.

Hell, just posting to this forum has strengthened several areas for me. Although I don't always have the same experience or viewpoint as you, your posts are always stimulating, thought-provoking and insightful. I have developed a lot of ARC for you and have never even met you!
That says a lot for your intention.

Author: Rudy
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 02:40 am

KGB,

That last post was for you by the way.

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 08:31 am

Thanks again. I am very glad that Paul put this forum together, and that Mike is keeping it here. It allows us all to be in communication in a way that might not have been possible otherwise. Thanks Mike and Paul!

kgb

Author: Confused
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 10:22 am

Rudy,

Even though I can't use E Mail at this time, I do appreciate your trying to help. If you can offer anything on this site, that would be great. If not, that's OK also.

Journeyman,

Could you please comment on my other questions to you in the above post of July 31st. I would truly appreciate it.

Others:

You are such an incredible group of people. I have been reading some of the other posts and on a whole there is so much understanding and acceptance I can bearly stand it.
I know that there has been a lot of kudos given out to Journeyman and I totally agree, but I would like to credit all of you for granting the beingness that you do.

I have been told endlessly that the people on the internet were evil and the people doing "other" scientology were squirrels. After intense curiousity I decided to have a look for myself and boy has my world opened up. If I never doubted my gains, I probably never would have looked. So, there is a purpose for everything. Those who are happy in the COS have no idea what is really going on and that the COS are probably the real squirrels. The problem is that they won't find out, because it would be a crime to even look and they want to do the ethical thing. It's actually quite a dilemma, esp. if you are in a family of zealots. I'm trying to keep my chin up and grant them beingness in what makes them happy.

I can see others that decide to look at the internet being easily dissuaded by the critics of Scientology on xenu and ARS and give up the whole thing. Well, you are here, alive and trying to do what you can to offer alternatives to those who have left COS, but may not want to give up on the whole thing. All of this, thanks to you.

Author: Eternity
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 11:19 am

Thanks for the thanks confused! I would also like to thank Paul and Mike for planning and keeping the site up. It's fun to come here and read the posts.
And also it is good to learn new words.

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 12:36 pm

Confused: "Where are you on the bridge?"

Training: Hubbard Qualified Scientologist, Keeping Scientology Working, Student Hat.

Processing: Purif Completion, CCRD Candidate

Confused: "Are you getting auditing that addresses what you are looking for?"

Currently, I am not. I have an Admin Scale in operation which will put me back on the Bridge by December. I am currently working through what you might consider lower conditions, and about to pop up through danger. September, October and November will be spent handling backlogs, and getting me finished with an emergency condition handling. From there forward, I can see steady progress on the Bridge, although I will be addressing it through the Metapsychology Curriculum.

Confused: "What do you think of what Flowrite said about having to run out the actual event, not the pictures of the event?"

Flowrite: "To aberrate a being the event would actually have to occur except if it is a false memory implant and in that case the event of the implant would need to be exposed not the phoney pictures."

I agree that the actual event must be handled (in the event of a movie, or false pictures, one would handle the protest, upset, shock, or whatever that was connected with watching the movie), including the charge connected to being forced or tricked into watching something that would cause an upset, etc. The pictures cannot be simply looked at and indicated- they must be fully confronted, which may mean going 'through' them, feeling the emotions, reexperiencing the protests, invalidations, etc.

Flowrite: "It is the only way AS-Isness can occur, (if you can't make a true copy you can't AS-IS). I apologize for sounding preachy.
It is of the utmost importance that the event actually happened otherwise all you are doing is running Dub-in and getting more deluded."

This gets fuzzy. Whether or not the event 'actually happened' cannot be verified. I think you just run what the pc says his item is, until it is handled, with whatever techniques are called for. If the item was dub-in, after running it for a while, the pc will realize that it was not a real event, or that it was not HIS event, etc. This might happen several sessions later, where he realizes he has been running someone else's track, or some false track that he recorded under duress and got confused about the reality of, etc. It is never the auditor's job to tell the pc that what he is running is dub-in. When the pc cognites that he has been running dub-in, this is a major advance, and will cause progress to speed up.

Confused: "Is there a group that audits to your specifications or do you audit yourself?"

There is a group that audits to my specifications. They are the group that uses Metapsychology, and are called the Traumatic Incident Reduction Association. The individuals have different names for their centers, and can be located at http://www.healing-arts.org/tir/framepract.htm

I do not audit myself, as I am not trained for it, am very overwhelmed with restimulated case, and am working through it by using ethics/success tech, instead. This tech is the best friend of a person who cannot confront his own case, or will not, for whatever reason. When a person gets up into the Normal conditions and above, he becomes capable of getting the assistance from professionals, and the training that he needs to handle his case and the case of others. In the meantime, the ethics tech in conjunction with the Admin Scale, and some hard discipline, gets me through.

Confused: "Are you aware of what Shogun is talking about?"

Shogun: "Greetings to all. I am new here. Personally, I would not read about OT III, and possibly stir up a lot of garbage for yourself. I would recommend running it, bypassing the substitution of viewing it. Problem is, since OT III was stolen from the real author (verified in fed. court recently in a case concerning someone else), and the true author (actually it was created LONG ago...he just keyed it in) fixed the lists so that OT III would not run properly without having it run with him auditing, the chances of properly running OT III are very very slim. When this person gets someone from the Church, he has to go back and run OT III properly on the person...there are always things to clean up. There is tech and personal discoveries above OT XII that will verify this. There is so much more that was developed after the Great Theft of OT III-OT VIII in the mid-sixties. I wish you all the best in your persuit of finding the the correct tech and the author of the correct tech through OT XXII. :-)"

No, I am not aware of what he is talking about. If he is suggesting there is another author of OT III, other than LRH, I do not know about it. If he is suggesting that others have stolen OT III from the Church, there is limited truth to that. It has been taken, and copied in the field, but the Church still retains their copies, so it actually was not stolen, which implies that they no longer have it.

My personal opinion is that there have been many writers of the tech, and that LRH stamped his name on all of their issues, until they left the Church, at which point they were branded SPs, rather than accepting them as Sources. I believe that anyone who achieves the awareness characteristic of Source, which corresponds to Know on the Know to Mystery Scale and Create on the Havingness Scale, is a Source. I don't believe that LRH was the only person ever to achieve this state, or that he had achieved it stably. I think that Scientology can sometimes key someone out into this state, and has done so, in many cases. The people who achieve this state, by definition, are capable of generating their own "tech", which is just as valid as scientology's. In many respects, this tech will be a duplicate of scientology, as in many respects, scientology is dead on! In other respects, there will be differences, some of which are of significant magnitude, because there are areas where scientology is NOT dead on, although it is close. One of these areas is evaluating for the pc on the OT levels. Another is the area of spiritual materialism, wherein people think that their case states are possessions, rather than a state of awareness. They show off their possessions, and get to a point where they have lost the abilities supposedly connected with their state, if they ever had them, and will not confront doing the levels necessary to regain them, insisting, instead, that they are "OT", or "Clear", when, in fact, they have run into more case. So they invent bizarre solutions, make others wrong, and get involved in games conditions, instead of confronting their CASE, and solving it, using the tech. This is why I support cycling through the Grades/Sections, as often as charge comes up, rather than considering that doing so "invalidates" the state that they have attested to.

In short, I am not sure what Shogun means, but the inference that there can be only one author of the tech is a joke, to me. Hubbard recognized this, himself, which is why he had other writers handling some parts of the research, and merely stamped his name on it for PR purposes and for control of the subject into the future.

Confused: "Is what the church has really not the original data?"

This is a tricky area. First off, I don't know, for sure, what "The Church" has. I know that much of what they are selling is an alteration of previous editions, but I don't know if they have lost control of the earlier editions. I doubt it. Also, the idea that LRH was the originator of all of this data is incorrect. Prior to his writing Dianetics, there were many authors writing about how the mind worked (hypnotists, therapists, magicians, etc.). Ron borrowed liberally from all of these sources, credited most of them (but not all, including Aleister Crowley). In this respect, he did not originate much of the data, but simply aligned it, and reformulated it. I respect his achievement, but don't think the assumption that it is solely his original creation is valid.

As for your wondering about the Pilot's position on OT III, or a rebuttal of the critics concerns, I leave that to you to research. It has been a while since I studied the Pilot's books. I know he had some things to say about OT III, and about the critics concerns. Probably, a good place to begin looking is the "What is and isn't true about Scientology" section of Super Scio.

I hope this addresses all the points you were referring to. Feel free to ask or point out anything you like.

kgb

Author: flowrite
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 02:19 pm

Confused
I'm going to be a little bit personal with you but feel free to tell me to MYOB if you want.

It does seem rather strange that you have to be so furtive about you internet activities. You sound like Cinderella living with the Ugly Sisters or perhaps more like a little boy who has downloaded some porn and is scared stiff his mum is going to burst in and catch him with his willy in his hand.
You're living with people who are in the cultzone. Perhaps you are still strongly influenced and haven't entirely broken free of your indoctrination and you have fallen between two stools.
Now that you have found the Freezone you don't need the CO$ to continue across the bridge, (if that is what you want).
The Church only has the power over you that you give it.
The family ties are probably the most difficult thing to deal with but at some point you are going to have to deal with their fear and yours. This is a growing opportunity for you.
God! I sound like an agony aunt.

Flowrite

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Wed Aug 01 2001 02:37 pm

I know that it will be difficult to confront your family, but scientology is supposed to be about confront, and truth, not hiding and accepting the illusions of others.

You might want to simply admit that you have checked into the "field" online, and found groups that maintain there are some outpoints in the current management and tech delivery line-up. This doesn't have to mean that you are abandoning the bridge, or that they need to. It is just inspection of the actual scene, and creating a program to handle the out-points from the ideal scene.

Of course, things WILL get bumpy, with the Church, but perhaps your family will be able to confront the truth, and back you up?

kgb

Author: 1 flew over
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 12:57 am

The item of having close ones still currently involved with the Cof$ is tough, at least for me. A very close person to me chastised me for doing something just questionably not "new rules standard". Before my rebuttal, I had to evaluate their position. In their current viewpoint, if I came out of the closet, they would have to immediately disconnect form me or would have a withhold or missed withhold to get off in session. After session they would be immediately routed into ethics and would be required to disconnect. Remember, The management of that group is extremely paranoid. How quickly we in the Freezone, where communication is open, forget that the Cof$ does not allow ANY contact with us evil squirrels. I spent hours in sec checking for my independent viewpoints before I left the Cof$ and I wasn't even connected to the outside field. I don't want to force the issue and lose the connection to a loved one at this time, even though I cannot agree with their current decision. I still go to events with them but I will admit my hip hip hurrahs are a little weak. I do not want to violate the ARC between us. Consider what you do carefully. Tough call.
Be Well

Author: Journeymna
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 08:05 am

A point: we do not have to go into agreement with other people's arbitrary stops in their communication.

I believe that people will eventually come to the same conclusions about doing their bridge in the Church as I did, and other FreeZoners. The best way to help this occur quickly, is to share our thoughts with them regarding the issue. The reason the Church wants them to disconnect is because once they start looking into the situation, it becomes obvious what the problems are (although very difficult to confront). Therefore, I am prepared to temporarily "lose" friends, even family, in order that they be exposed to my view of the Church and the tech, so that they will initiate an investigation for themselves that much quicker. They may react, at first, with a quick dismissal of my views, and disconnect. But over time, they will think about what I said, and see things that are happening around them with that in mind. This may enturbulate them, shake up their stable data, and it may not be the gentlest way of going about it, but I think shaking someone awake is better than whispering in their ear, particularly when time is a relevant factor.

kgb

Author: VAST
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 09:50 am

Hello Journeyman. I agree with your point about disconnection being used in the CofS these days. There are some who really are just PTS, but there seems to me to be an underlying intent to cut comm to the world outside of the CofS. If the members were informed of Clearing outside of the CofS they would realize their folly and withdraw support for the organization. A recent post by CONFUSED confirms that there are still those in the CofS who have no knowledge of the bridge existing in the field. Also, there is a large amount of data on CofS current "tech", showing the gradual alteration of LRH original tech. I refer to my friend Virginia McClaughery and Mike McClaughery's website, where a spot on analysis was done describing the many alterations. I don't have the exact address handy, but, it's something like ReformedScientologists, I think. A search of the net should get anyone there using a good search engine and key words Virginia McClaughery. I also agree with you that it is better to inform the uninformed than to keep the relevant data to oneself. They will need all the pertinant data to do a proper evaluation of their current situation. I do not envy them, for I know what is occuring in the CofS these days, and the result of their altered bridge will lead to true darkness for them. They won't realize it fully until it is too late, if ever.

Author: Confused
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 11:50 am

To help your understanding:

We are public, but highly involved. I felt like I have always been on the outside, as I don't agree with so many of their ways. I have voiced by complaints and have been sec checked on them. I come to terms with them to be able to go up the bridge. Now, I don't care. But, my wife is a zealot. She says that if they don't use hard sell, nobody or very few would do it. She sees the outpoints as a necessary evil. In mosst other areas we are in agreement and I love her very much. If I bring up the outpoints and give her info. I will become the outpoint and a divorce will occur. I know of this because we have discussed it before. She wants to be with someone totally involved. I have 4 children. The first 2 consider themselves Scientologists and go to Scientology schools. The other 2 are still too young. So, as you can see, this is not a simple situation.

I would love to tell them my viewpoint and about the freezone, but I'm afraid I'd be cutting my own throat.
My wife knows that I am taking a break, but I thought I would get more training at our local org. If I stop doing services, she will probably want a divorce anyway. What I am afraid of is that if this situation does lead to divorce, my children will disconnect from me and I can't bear that at this time. I have no parents or friends out of Scientology. I would truly be alone. Maybe in the future, but not now. I'm independent, but not that independent.

Author: Confused
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 11:55 am

I forgot one more thing.

Even if I did bring it up, this is not the time. My wife is on auditing lines and this will come up in her auditing and bingo, to ethics!!! My son is also in auditing. Same scenario.

What a situation!

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 01:36 pm

Confused: You will have to make up your own mind about timing and relative importances. I have been through a similar situation- if I did not go into agreement with the Church, my wife would not talk to me, and would not let me see my children, and has the Church lawyers at her beck and call. I love my children very much, and I love her even MORE, if that makes any sense, but I refused to be blackmailed with her affinity. I see what she has done with my children as a crime, and will bring her to court to answer for it. I have no desire to punish her, but I have every intention of using the law to bypass her control of the children. I don't think a person can be a good role model to their children if they are allowing themselves to be cowed and blackmailed, but then again, they aren't a role model at all if they are not present. This is the problem the Church throws in our laps, via our spouses, when they can. Personally, I don't think a marriage based on extortion and blackmail is worth keeping, even if you love your spouse. That is why I left. I was quite astonished that she did not come with me, and felt very deeply betrayed, but there were hints along the way that this might occur. That happened six years ago, and it STILL hurts, today. In fact, I desperately need some sort of serious intensive handling of my ARC breaks with her, if I ever intend to have another relationship with a woman! Currently, I actively AVOID getting close with women, to protect them from my bitterness!

YUCK!

kgb

Author: NOANSWER
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 02:43 pm

Hi Confused,

That's unfortunately quite a situation you're encountering.
I would advice you to remain quiet at the moment because of the following reasons:

1. Your wife is totally being controlled by the co$.
2. To speak up now is to lose those who you truly love.
3. The co$ knows exactly where they can hurt you the most.
4. The co$ doesn't know what you really want and this alone
gives you much advantage to plan your departure from the
co$.
5. If the co$ would know about your viewpoint they would
immediately act with the intention to make you change
your mind or else...

To get out of the co$ without losing your wife and children, it's important to slowly start shifting the reality and viewpoint that your wife has adopted, without making her upset about your own viewpoint. Just as they have gradually brainwashed her, you should also use very clever tactics to deprogram her viewpoints. She's not ready yet to be confronted with the outpoints of the co$. To confront her right now with your viewpont is to cause a shock-effect, that surely will come up in one of her sessions.

It's really important to gradually conquer your wife's loyalty back, only then can you rise above this situation in the exact way that you want it. The best weapon that you have right now is SILENCE BACKED UP BY A PLAN of your own choice. And it will always have to be one of your own choice. We're here to support all your efforts in your struggle to beat the ugly monster. May you win all the way, my friend.

NOANSWER

Author: Eternity
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 02:47 pm

Hi KGB! What do you mean a marriage based on blackmail and distortion? Can you clarify?

Author: NOANSWER
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:07 pm

Hi Eternity, is their a MU? If so, go back to exact point before you felt confused, find the MU, wordclear it and continue.

NOANSWER

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:21 pm

I concur with NOANSWER that a stealthier tactic might work better (oh, well, it WOULD work better- me and my damn fool pride- I could have handled it better, but refuse to face it, sometimes). There is a danger, there, however, that she will perceive your efforts to be more subtle, and conclude that you are a bad hat, and give you no chance to explain the necessity.

Ken Ogger, aka the Pilot, couldn't convince his wife of the need for reform. After many years of hiding his activity, and persisting in the Church, his own wife "outed" him, and caused a black op against him the likes of which I have never heard of directly from another human being. The reason I bring this up is because I have a hard time believing anyone can have much of a better grasp of the tech than Ken, but he was unable to wake his wife to the reality. If your wife is really indoctrinated, only you can really know what type of tactic might make her see your views. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful than that!

kgb

Author: shogun :-
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:21 pm

Good afternoon, guys :-) Boy, lots of information going on here! Well, from my viewpoint, the "tech" up through and well beyond "the bridge" has been around for millions of years. Some, on this planet, have keyed-in a lot of it. So, if I speak of the author of, say, OT III, he may not have been the originator of it, but has done all of the labor and such this time around. Filbert has the original OT III in his handwriting, and this was used as federal evidence in a recent case concerning someone else having his tech ripped off by the (church). It was stolen from him, in it's booby-trapped form, by the (church) and the Isreali Mosad. You can read all about such silly events and a lot more in Excaliber Revisited.
Does the (church) have the correct tech? YES. Problem is, they only have part of it and some of the processes dont run right because they were intentionally altered for personal security reasons. That is why there can be tremendous gains with the (church), yet, when Filbert audits someone from the (church), there is a lot of missed items sticking to their time track, as well as a lot of things that have not been handled completely. If you are going to solve a problem...solve it forever, I say.
On a different subject, I do understand that many here are PC's and havent completed the bridge. Might I suggest that you do all you can to run the grades and the OT levels and stop finding other things to do and to run? I dont know the conditions of each of you...all I know is that it worked like a charm for me. Obviously, if there is case, it should be handled. However, sometimes properly running the main "meat" of the tech will run-out the problems that seem to be appropriately handled by extra processes. It might be a substitute for actually running the grades and Ot's. Maybe not. I do know that I have spoken to quite a lot of people who were somewhere on the bridge...and MANY of them always seem to get stuck, in that there seems to be reason after reason not to get through the grades and OT's. Just something to consider...it may not apply to you.
I have found some auditors are incapable of simple, honest communication. I also know that not everyone is cut out to be a good auditor..it takes talent. When I was audited, it was fast, no B.S. Now, everyone is different, and my sessions sometimes were very flashy and I audited very quickly, yet I see a bit of getting bogged down in the tech with a lot of people. Maybe it's just his style and my fast-runing case, I'm not sure. Again, food for thought.
I do not have all the answers, I just like to share and help and learn. I very well may be very different from a lot of you in that I never audited with the (church). I do know that my experience was fast, cheap, amazing and there were no incidents of consequence left on my track, nor misunderstoods. Yippie! LOL
BTW, (hubbard) never was audited through all the basic grades...doesn't men he wasn't very brilliant in some ways, but fact is fact. He was a PC.
Dont just audit a problem...audit the hell out of it! :-)

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:22 pm

Eternity- if your wife is telling you she will divorce you if you do not stop noticing and trying to correct outpoints with the Church, she is blackmailing you, and trying to extort your compliance.

kgb

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:43 pm

Shogun, I agree that not everyone comes to the table with the same abilities all polished up, but I think it is false to say that not everyone is cut out to be a good auditor. Talent comes from practice, and hard work. When I was a kid, there weren't many who were gawkier, or had more difficulty with physical coordination. The first time I had a tennis lesson, I hit my instructor in the face with the racquet on the back-swing. Nobody was laughing, trust me! I can laugh now, because I did NOT QUIT. I trained, every day during the summer, and three days a week during the school year, at 5 hours or more per day, for several (5) years. And I got extremely good. People, to this day, compliment me on my "talent" with tennis, and I barely ever play anymore. My point here is not that I am superman on a tennis court (and I like to think I am), but that I mastered a skill, and developed the resources (speed, coordination, strength, focus) needed in the process. It taught me that my will alone is strong enough to change the shape of my body, to carry me past the point of physical exhaustion, and to EXCEL, under such conditions.

I think ANYONE, who makes up their mind TOTALLY, can accomplish ANYTHING, subject to their ABILITY to BYPASS RESTRICTIONS imposed by THEMSELVES and OTHERS. To me, this is the essence of the scientology philosophy. Therefore, ANYONE who is totally dedicated and intent can become a superlative auditor, even if they have to CREATE the abilities they are lacking, and hone the ones that are not sharp, through good training and a real apprenticeship.

You don't learn tennis from a book, nor do you learn to audit from a book. A book is a great aid, but the intention and experience of another thetan cannot be substituted for. I know Ron was trying to avoid that situation, but I don't believe it is possible to enlightenment through terminals that are not alive. Life begets life. Symbols beget symbols.

kgb

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 03:47 pm

"I know Ron was trying to avoid that situation, but I don't believe it is possible to transmit enlightenment through terminals that are devoid of life." Is the way that sentence was intended, sorry.

kgb

Author: flowrite
Posted: Thur Aug 02 2001 04:37 pm

Confused
You need support. I live thousands of miles away and have not gone through what you are going through. As a suggestion use another computer for your comm to the Freezone, (internet cafe or library) and an internet email address eg Hotmail. I'm sure there are people here that you can talk to privately and in confidence but be aware of posters from the COS.
Sooner or later it will come to a head, especially if you have a session
Things like paranoia, fear, attachment, resentment, resulting in zealots, are not being handled in the COS or the tech itself isn't working. This is basic stuff that even the clumsiest therapy deals with.

flowrite

Author: NOANSWER
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 02:36 am

Journeyman, I totally agree with your above statement. I really admire your knowingness.

I hope to meet you one day in one of the 'PLAYING FIELDS' in the theta universe, where we thetans love to play and fly endlessly. Flying and playing all over the place with the same playing spirit that little children have. It really is a beautiful, shining, heavenly environment where everybody loves and understands each other.

Exteriorization is bliss, damn I really, really, reaeaealllllllyyyyyy love it!

NOANSWER

Author: shogun :-
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 03:03 am

Journeyman, thank you for you great post (as usual!). I do tend to differ on the poit of auditing. I have seen a number of examples of poor auditing....just plain messy. And way too LONG! I see auditing as a spiritual activity, not like that of memorizing by rote words, procedures and processes. I think that is the very problem with a lot of auditors......they go completely FEMALE-minded on the subject (emotion and feeeeeeeeeeelings over mind spirit and creation). Look, I am a pretty fair tennis player (Borg is my tennis hero...who is yours? Connors?), yet no matter how much work and efforting I could put into the game, I could never be Borg or McEnroe. See...auditing is a CREATION and spritual event. I would compare an auditor to a jazz musician, not an athelete. I think Duke Ellington would have made an amazing auditor....not Steffi Graff.
I have see, hour after hour what Filbert could do, and he explained (because of my stated interest in becoming an auditor, myself) all about different styles of auditing and the hugh lack of talent among auditors. Based on my very quickly getting up through the bridge an far beyond it, historical facts concerning Filbert, creation, and the (church), as well as he being the only one (hubbard) ever allowed to audit himself...and the fact that for decades this wondeful man has made zero bucks intentionally in his amazing practice.....well, I tend to go with his word on this subject. When all the murders went down, he was expressly spared by (hubbard) and protected by 4 nation's leaders. I am a man of percentages, and thusly, I go with his opinion and my knowledge on this. AGAIN, we may be wrong, you just never know on this crazy prison planet :-)

Author: Journeyman
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 08:10 am

Filbert was not the only person Ron ever allowed to audit him. Otto Roos and David Mayo also had that honor, and I don't know how many others.

I liked Filbert's book, except that throughout it, it smelled like he was really impressed with himself, and had a low opinion of others. That's why I prefer the Pilot's books, or better yet, Gerbode's. But we all have different people we enjoy listening to.

Which murders are you referring to, and which 4 nation's leaders are you referring to? What evidence does Filbert offer that Hubbard expressly spared him? Rey Robles makes claim that Hubbard specifically ordered the Church not to go after him, as well. I have never seen any evidence of this. Sounds more likely that the two of them promised not to become threats to Hubbard's commercial Church efforts to rake in the cash, so they were let alone.

kgb

Author: Pathfinder
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 10:45 am

I once asked Filbert, who wrote this book (Excalibur Revisited) first. You or me. He paused for a moment then answered. That that has been my argument with the church for years. It's been written before and no one really owns it. So lets stop the childish games and get the job done.
Kgb. Filbert, see the world as children playing adult games. About at fourth grade level. I didn't understand what he was talking about until after OT-8. He does mention this in his book and he does not think that it should be tolerated and he has done what he can to change it.
Shogun, it's nice to meet somebody else that knows how fast and cheap it can be to go up the bridge, when it's done right.

Pathfinder.

Author: Eternity
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 10:57 am

Hi Pathfinder! Can you elaborate on that statement that adults are really children playing adult games? I'd be glad to hear of your cognition after your consummation of OT8. If you want to post it.

Author: Pathfinder
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 02:50 pm

Eternity,
No, I don't want to elaborate on the subject. It's different for everyone and it is best to cognite on it yourself. There is plenty of evidence in everyday life. One example. Turn on a TV and wait for a commercial to come on. Most commercials are targeted at a fourth grade level. Because the general pupil will response to them.
I'm a schoolbus driver with a GED now. So don't expect any thunderous revelations from my posts. If you knew me personally and spend some time with me. It is possible. But, most of the time I am not around anyway. Jeff, would delay going into session sometimes, until I would show up. Indians use to do a dance to get the spirits to show up. Filbert doesn't.
I believe there is a difference between a cognition and a revelation. A revelation to me has more to do about others and other universes (a judgement that is made from an exterior viewpoint). It could possibly encompass all dynamics and contain an ultimate truth. A cognition to me is more about myself and interelations with others. Sort of self truths that come to lite.
We are all OT. To what degree you are is a different story. OT-8 use to be called "a master of the third or fourth degree". OT-ness is going on all the time in our lives. We are just blind to the fact and being blind retards the ability. But it is there right now. Ron said, I just want to get you to look, that's all. Filbert said, I'd rather have you see.
Pathfinder.

Author: Eternity
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 03:01 pm

An OT 8 bus driver? Have you ever made the bus float?

Author: Eternity
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 03:03 pm

Sorry guys. I'll have to better fetter these urges.

Author: Pathfinder
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 04:24 pm

I'm floating. Why do I need the bus to float?
Pathfinder.

Author: Confused
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 06:11 pm

Journeyman,

That was an incredible account of your life in and out of COS. After reading what happened to you and also to the Pilot, I think I will sit back for awhile until the time is right. There is no rush and I could almost guarantee the same will occur with me.

Thank you everyone for the support. If in need, I will set up a more confidential plan in communicating with you.

I'm going to take a break this weekend from all of this. I will look into the materials you suggested re: OT 3 next week.

Thanks again for all your help, Journeyman. And I wish you the best in handling your situation. You are a wonderful person and deserve the best. One day maybe you will meet someone with a similar reality to yours and you can then make a life together.

As far as my situation, only time will tell, but because of our differences it doesn't look too good. I realized that it could work if the reality differences weren't that major, but when they are it is very difficult.

Author: Journeymna
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 08:02 pm

Confused: I am glad to have been able to help, and glad my story was meaningful to you (was good for something, anyway, eh?). I think you are wise to take a break, and I would strongly encourage you NOT to look at OT III. There is no reason to restimulate it, if you are not currently dealing with it. Even if it were unreal to you, it would just be a waste of time. It is your decision, of course. I read the materials, and I did not get sick. I can't say for sure if it had any effect on me, at all, but I think I could have used my time better doing some co-auditing at the level I was at!

Do well!

kgb

Author: Thanatea
Posted: Fri Aug 03 2001 08:26 pm

and everybody in the freezone agrees that the church is on final countdown in the intensive care station. next year i tell a few friends, you wouldn't see the evidence.

thanatea, the holy asp

Author: Rudy
Posted: Sat Aug 04 2001 07:39 am

Eternity,

No don't stop...you are toooo funny!