Initiative isn't evil
Author: Lea
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 02:57 pm
Revised editions of things I've said before, but belong here.
CUTATIVE REFERANCES
Ron gave warnings of the use of cutative (abbreviated) use of tech referances. He gave the example of qualifiers being cut off as in "The children may not go out after midnight." being summerized as "The children may not go out." See there, someone says, "The children may not go out." That is a cutative referance. You know the Code of a Scientologist, but when someone shows you a cutative referance that seems to make it obsolete, you would think the person showing you the referance doesn't even suspect that you know any better. You know that the Q's are the highest data from which we are now working, that all other data is to be evaluated by the Q's (Q1 being that self determinism is the common denominator of all life impulses). Know at least the basics of the tech, evaluate all other data by the basics, and the so called referances will be a little more complete. So don't confuse referances with cutative referances, and know that when a "referance" seems to be suppressive, if would be to your advantage instead of saying OK, to ask to sit down with the book and read the COMPLETE policy, which will cause a bit of discomfort on the part of the terminal who wished to "educate" you, and I PROMISE that you will find that Ron has most, if not all of the bases covered.
HOW CONDITIONS CAN BE USED SUPPRESSIVELY AND HOW TO USE THEM CORRECTLY TO WIN.
A condition is an Operating state ("Operate "implys "DO")
Statistics should therefore be "do"oriented.
Correct sequence is be, do, have.
All of these things have statistics.
(For "be" you have the tone scale, chart of attitudes, case gain. For "do" you have delivery.) GI is a statistic that depends on a lot of "be"'s and a lot of "do"'s.A person can have more than one beingness or doingness and so could be in differant conditions for each.
If I am a ditch digger and I Eat 1 hamburger and dig 500 miles of ditch, that would be a good statistic. If I eat 500 hamburgers and dig three feet of ditch, my statistic is not 500 hamburgers.
When verbal tech or misunderstandings with past technologies enter into the conditions, they could be used suppressively.
An example:
The Doubt formula says
Examine the statistics of the group, project or org.
One of the primary things you are examining in the statistics are the intentions of the org.
You say "6 million dead jews", Lots of money."
These statistics give me an indication of the groups intentions.
The Doubt formula DOES NOT say:
"OK, NOW SIDE WITH THE WINNING SIDE"
It does NOT say that!
That is an assumed. That is the way that cowards operate.
The men who ran the Underground Railroads to free slaves didn't operate that way.
Side with the winning side is an aberation.
It is the "side with the tyrant, never with the peasant" philosophy.
It bypasses the "greatest good" step of the formula.
Greatest good for greatest dynamics ALWAYS begins with TRUE Principles. That is your be.
If you break true principles, you have already lost the game.
An outstanding example of a Doubt formula properly executed is the Declaration of Independance. If youve read it a million
times, you must read it again for it's brilliance.
It was not a side with the "winning" side, it was an analisis of intention(by looking at statistics) and an understanding that
the greatest good is always best served by a foundation of true survival principles.)
The differance is that in Scientology the principles are already laid out. Don't revolute, evolute.
We have a right to get delivery stats up. We have an obligation to find the outpoint or outpoints if they are not.
Any statistic that is IMPORTANT TO YOU, should be counted as a VALID statistic.This is your "Be".
When evaluating greatest good for greatest dynamics,
know that your third dynamic(which is YOUR group)includes a lot of second and first dynamics, and your fourth includes a lot of thirds, seconds and firsts etc.)
Lower conditions always have negative statistics
It could be lost mail, broken items, invalidated public, suppressed delivery, wasted money, etc.
Not operating on post while being paid is a negative statistic, so income without proportional delivery is a negative statistic.
THE REST OF THE STORY
GLOSSED OVER COMMON REFERANCES ON SQUIRRELING TO SUPPLEMENT CUTATIVE REFERANCES ON SQUIRRELING
HCO PL 14 feb 1965 says "Anyone is certainly entitled to have opinions and ideas and cognitions-so long as they do not bar the route for self and others." (You said yourself that your delivery statistics/case gain stats are high.) This is in the policy entitled Safeguarding technology in which Ron sets out to define squirreling. You may have been verbally instructed that these statements were not important. What works is what works. That is important. You can build airplanes to get across the rivers and fly as you please, but for the sake of security, don't
burn the bridges. Scientology may not be the best system, and even if better systems are developed, the old system still works.
KSW says (in 1965) "There remains, of course, group tabulation or coordination of what has been done, which will be valuable-only so long as it does not seek to alter the basic principles and SUCCESSFUL applications"
Of course you may have received verbal tech that these statements are not important, that what is important are the stops. I don't believe that Ron included these statements to just keep himself busy. He wrote it because it is a part of the tech. As it is in line with the basic purpose, it is important tech.
Also Purpose is above policy on the Admin scale.
Also in KSW it says "The ONLY thing you can be upbraided for by students or PCs is "No results". Trouble spots only occur when there are "no results" or "bad results."
I am unfamiliar with upper level auditing, but does it actually prohibit valid case gain statistics on any grounds (unauthorized case gain)? On the other hand, Mcdonalds might be able to produce a delicious honey glazed bar-b q burger, but if the customer comes for a Big Mac, at least he knows what he is going to get. As a PC I want the auditor who will get me the most case
gain. That is of senior importance. But if you made a free house of Scientology, I question whether the better side would win. There would go my security.
The professional auditors bullitin 79 (What do I think of auditors?) says"I consider all auditors my friends. I consider them that even when they squirrel. I believe they have a right to express themselves and their own opinions. I would not for a moment tamper their right to think.
I think of auditors and Scietnologists as free people."
He goes on "I sorrow when I see somebody accomplishing less than he should because he thinks I wouldn't approve of it. In our churches and out, I count upon initiative and good judgement.)
Why did he write this? The harmful verbal tech is not the free comm of auditors wanting to see results, it is those remarks that would render these loving statements invalid, who would have you believe they were written out of some delerious madness.
As I skim my book for another piece of tech, I pass over some articles on Compliance which are labled BPL's which, (correct me if I'm wrong)were declared illegal.I wander how many ex staffers are aware that the BPLs and BTB's are illegal now? Once again correct me, I'm not incredibly informed. Also in passing, I see that another BPL which limits the use of the E meter. Someone may want to check out the valid LRH tech on that matter.
Also, I gather from the Freezone intro that CO$ means the scientology organization, not necessarily all of the tech. I am putting forth the effort to remind you that the organization only stops tech when admin tech is out(not to be confused with verbal tech admin or verbal tech altered importances) The admin tech that protects delivery from mismanagement is of the highest importance. The codes and creeds are of the highest importance. These protect delivery. This verbal tech is not a misdemeanor. To say that Ron's statements above "don't count" is like the SP who won't relay good com., who does'nt support good actions. To mention that Verbal altered importances (like saying that protection of freedom and freedom to deliver as offered in the codes) is unacceptable, is not nattering. It is not nit-picking. It is considered a level of ethics handling. Verbal tech that impedes delivery and encourages invalidation is a crime in the highest degree, nomatter where it occurs, no matter how much agreement it finds. I am not talking about anyone who tries to get delivery in at all costs, who cares nothing about reputation, who understands purpose.
Author: PO
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 03:44 pm
By saying this is a Pro-Scientology Discussion group, could you just clarify a bit what is meant by that? I do think just about everyone in the Free-Zone is Pro-Scientology to some degree, whether or not they may have some disagreements or dissatisfaction with something about it.
On the other hand, maybe its not so bad to have a place where the positive aspects of scientology can be discussed in a rational positive way. It is unfortunate, however, that it only in the Freezone where such conversations can actually take place.
Author: Lea
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 04:08 pm
I should clarify that much of the above was a RESPONSE to a debate on the subject of squirreling, which was originally, against my better judgement, carried out in a space not guided by the codes and creeds. Considering that certain agreements preceed any discussion here, I guess I should tone it down a bit. My apologies.
The Freezone has offered an unregulated space for pro Scientology discussion. There was not one before, to my knowledge. With it located within the Freezone, I hope that the offer of generosity will be taken by the more conservative Scientologists at face value, which it seems to be. It is an excellant start. Not all of the ideas listed here are going to be brilliant, some may even be silly, my own included, but that is life. I've found that a discussion of a subject, in all of it's sillyness, works like a "How does it seem to you now." process, with the most "profound" assertions of a few minutes ago, seeming dwarfed by the new revelations that evolve. That's the way it goes with discussions. As for the fear of picking up entheta, that should not keep you from having a communication space any more than the fear of suppressives would keep you from getting a job.
What the space needs is
1 links to it which bypass the infamous Scientology "screening" software
(What is this screening software anyway. It would be interesting to discover WHAT EXACTLY it screens out.)
2 for someone with more resources than myself to follow it's lead, and create a comparable space outside of the freezone.
The goal of establishing communication lines between Scientologists is a noble purpose, and one worth dedicating time and energy to. It's hard work running the first lines, ask the telephone companies, but the results go beyond what could be achieved by any single statement. A group that dedicates it'self solely to the establishment of communication lines has a lot to be proud of.
Author: Lea
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 04:35 pm
PO
Here certain agreements preceed any discussion, namely the codes and creeds. More than likely, these are the causes which first enlisted your support.It's sort of a straight-wire on purpose. Also, it should be no violation of any policy to participate, and is so obviously intended to be a theta environment, that the site is open to Scientologists in good standing.
In your comment:
It is unfortunate, however, that it only in
the Freezone where such conversations can actually take place.
The premise is "it is only in the Freezone where such conversations can take place."
Not only is it possible to have a similar site outside the Freezone, it is a necessity. This is an excellent site, and it needs to exist independant of the Freezone as well as inside. It will be a thankless contribution, no doubt, and it will abound with anti-Freezone discussions. Communication is happening, and the Freezone couldn't be happier. Thank God. When the Aims of Scientology were first introduced, we realized, we didn't have time to stand around waiting for a thank you.
Author: Hari
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 05:20 pm
Let us be pro the truth, not merely pro scientology. Then our attitude to scientology will be analytical, impartial and objective, and therefore suitably sceptical.
But Lea, you seem to be a logical, informed, clearthinking sort of person. Go to http://www.xenu.net and scroll down a bit until you come to the subheading "You are a fool!", open it up and read it and see what a mess Heldal made of the clam's arguments. Take up the cudgels on scientology's behalf, Lea. Attack!
Author: Ed H.
Posted: Wed 31 Mar 1999 07:58 pm
Lea said:
"What the space needs is
1 links to it which bypass the infamous Scientology "screening" software
(What is this screening software anyway. It would be interesting to discover WHAT EXACTLY it screens out.)"
The URL below takes you to a page which describes the screening software and has links to a list of the forbidden words and websites.
http://www.xenu.net/archive/events/censorship/
And I hope that being conservative about Scientology doesn't mean being willing to confront unpleasant true facts.
All the best, ed
Author: PO
Posted: Thur 1 Apr 1999 07:36 am
Lea, It is interesting that scientology itself does not have an open discussion line. All the sites I have found that are pro-scientology are basically one way. They do have an e-mail address to mail back "your-view" or reach the webmaster, but there is no true forum for Q and A or discussion.
It may not matter anyhow, because it might seem that discussion with anyone, but a high level terminal or someone in RTC would be irrevelent, since it is only the upper terminals that are allowed to administer justice and interpret policy. God forbid if someone wanted to have a rational discussion of data including gains and methods others might be developing outside of the church.
When you say it should be open only to "Scientologists in Good Standing" that could imply to me that only those in full agreement at the start would be allowed to participate.
The basic idea, though, is an excellent one. What scientology does need is a forum where individuals can link up and communicate with each other openly and freely and without fear of losing status and being questioned, sec-checked, or otherwise invalidated.
Author: Lea
Posted: Thur 1 Apr 1999 08:47 am
Po, I only hope this can be maintained as a theta environment. You quoted me as saying "open only to Scientologists in good standing." Actually that is a misquote, the ONLY was added. If you remember, we expect a lot out of Scientologists. And yes, only those who agree with the codes and creeds and the conditions of entrance are allowed to participate. That agreement is assumed when you communicate here. We are concerned more with Who you are than what you've been labled, especially if standard Scientology ethics sequence and procedure were BYPASSED to assign the lable. That would be an outpoint.
Concerning your statement, "It may not matter anyhow, because it might seem that discussion with anyone, but a high level terminal or someone in RTC would be irrevelent"
Yes, it might SEEM that way.
Concerning your statement
"only the upper terminals that are allowed to administer justice and interpret policy."
Show me an HCO Pl to that effect. Once again, the "only" is questionable. I have a paragraph above on cutatative referances. What do you mean by "interpret"? Do you mean verbal tech? Can you give me an example of this?
Yes, I agree, it is interesting that Scientology doesn't have a discussion group. Now they do. I doubt that one will be supplied by the church in the near future.
The establishment of communication lines is a very worthy cause.
Ed, thanks for the link. Very well done.
Author: Kevin G. Brady (Rockslam) [rockslam@hotmail.co]
Posted: Thur 1 Apr 1999 11:23 am
This environment will remain theta as long as no communication is cut. Anyone, in any standing, with anyone, may come here and post their thoughts, and take what tech they want. There is no need to restrict communication lines. Simply keep your TRs in. You'll be fine. If some scientologist comes here and finds out that the comm is heavily enturbulative, then he's probably not going to cut it in the real world, which is, happily enough, where we live. If you prefer the shelter of the ethics department "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". In other words, express yourself, or don't, you can even try to cut others comm. I will assist anyone trying to communicate openly about reform in the church, and trying to get their bridge without contributing to the motion of the Cof$. You may continue to try to cut the comm here. I don't care what ron's admin tech or ethics tech say about how we are allowed to communicate. My knowingness is senior. When I see an outpoint, I will communicate about it.
As far as establishing yet another discussion group about scientology, that's fine with me, just realize that the Church will immediately try to block its members from seeing it if they do not control its content.
There is not that effort here.
The Grade I process is the Internet for the Planet.
Grade II will probably go in when enough people start feeling free about communicating and there are terminals to be contacted about their o/w's. Higher Grades are too complicated for me to consider right now, as I am trying to get hatted up to meet the impending demand.
OPEN IT WIDE, people, and make it as cheap as possible to cross. That way we can all learn and win without these incredible stops.
kgb
Author: Ed H.
Posted: Thur 1 Apr 1999 11:58 am
I said in my last post:
"And I hope that being conservative about Scientology doesn't mean being willing to confront unpleasant true facts."
Sorry, got the negatives backwards! Make it "unwilling".
Look, anyone reading this who is still in the church is going to have missed withhold problems at the least. It is absolutely not okay to be here. How do you get around this? By revising your personal set of codes and creeds to include that no one has any authority, moral, ethical or otherwise, to evaluate or invalidate what you choose to read or look at. Or to eval or inval ANYTHING for you.
All the best, Ed
Author: Ed H.
Posted: Thur 1 Apr 1999 11:58 am
I said in my last post:
"And I hope that being conservative about Scientology doesn't mean being willing to confront unpleasant true facts."
Sorry, got the negatives backwards! Make it "unwilling".
Look, anyone reading this who is still in the church is going to have missed withhold problems at the least. It is absolutely not okay to be here. How do you get around this? By revising your personal set of codes and creeds to include that no one has any authority, moral, ethical or otherwise, to evaluate or invalidate what you choose to read or look at. Or to eval or inval ANYTHING for you.
All the best, Ed
Author: Lea
Posted: Fri 2 Apr 1999 08:52 am
Kevin, a couple of points in the code of a Scientologist are:
To work for freedom of speech in the world.
To actively decry the suppression of knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or data which would help mankind.
Grade is not a word originating in Scientology, and if it has other definitions that forward the causes of the Aims of Scientology, namely the establishment of communication lines, I can see that as a good thing. Perhaps for the sake of clarity, you should emphisize that these grades are not intended as a substitute for the Scientology Grades, you know how people get the wrong idea.
Ed, Concerning your statement
"By revising your personal set of codes and creeds to include that no one has any authority, moral, ethical or otherwise, to evaluate or invalidate what you choose to read or look at. Or to eval or inval ANYTHING for you."
This is already provided for in The Code of Honor. A problem arises when an individual places orders above policy on his personal admin scale, so as to "look good" or "make friends". THIS Freezone seems to me to be no more than a communication line or environment. The idea that a line can be suppressive is silly to me but may make perfect sense to someone else. The fear may be that suppressives are in this space. That does not keep someone from going outside. This space, in particular, is a safe space because actual suppressive remarks are discouraged by agreements made upon entrance.
I checked out your link concerning the web screening. It appears that the solution is to understand the software and not allow it to inhibit on policy investigation by learning to talk between the lines.
As far as suppressives in this space, please be up front as to the situation. Who recieved a Comm ev.? What were the crimes? Who was denied a comm ev? This is my highest concern. I grant no authority to off-policy or out-sequence "declares" where standard Scientolgy was bypassed. This is an outpoint and an indication of an attempt to cover a withhold. To communicate with those who were illegally declared is not even remotely wrong, on the contrary it is a necessity and a responsibility to carry forward on-policy investigation.
Author: Ed H.
Posted: Fri 2 Apr 1999 09:23 am
Lea said: "It appears that the solution is to understand the software and not allow it to inhibit on policy investigation by learning to talk between the lines."
Huh?? Please explain...
Author: Lea
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 07:28 am
Just know what the screened words are and make pages that avoid them.If the investigative INFORMATION is to the point, the screening software will be advantagious in that it WILL screen out all of the non-informative BS that is out there.
There is a page in Ed's link that will (if I read it correctly) get through the software and tells how to make it inactive.
Possibly supply as a download a "Decoder for downloaded on-policy investigations."The purpose of which is to "reestablish illegally severed comm lines."
Such a program could be developed in an evening by an amature and couldn't take up more than a few bytes.
Or you could also just supply a typewritten code along with on-policy investigations.
If you have to, speak pig latin.
The lines have to remain open for on-policy investigations.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 07:36 am
Anyone wish to comment on:
What constitutes a theta environment?
Author: Adept
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 09:15 am
just energy.
energy is everything.
theta
life force
metta (buddism)
energy.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 09:24 am
Care to distinguish it from mest force energy?
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 09:36 am
Any comments?
If this is abbridged, the little Leprechaun who left this on my doorstep swore he would disown it.
We of the Q1 initiative, in accordance with the Code of a Scientologist, do hereby assert our forsworn responsibilities to work for freedom of speech in the world, to stress the freedom to use Scienology as a philosophy in all it's applications in all of the humanities and to actively decry the suppression of knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or data which would help mankind.
As we have offered our services to those purposes established in the codes and policies of Scientology, including the right to free speech, by it's founder L Ron Hubbard, and in the Aims of Scientology, and not to other purposes ASSIGNED by "interpretations" of this philosophy or cutative (abbreviated resulting in a loss ofmeaning) referances of the same, we claim our right and responsibility to pursue those noble goals and grant no authority to those orders which place themselves above the policies to which we have freely offered our service.
As communication lines are essential to the preservation of this cause, any attempt to sever our communication lines will be recognized as an assault against the purposes stated above.
We believe that Scientology as a religion is a congregation, not a building, and that our rights shall not be dependant upon the value or location of our property.
We claim no property or services which are not our own.
Our policies on diplomatic defense will consist solely of the Creeds and Codes. Anyone who, by initiative, wishes to formally represent this group, will counter any verbal or written assault primarily by lines of the Creeds and Codes of Scientology, as evaluated by the Q's, and by the Qs themselves which are the highest level of data from which we are now operating. Our policies for physical defense are not limitted and are dictated by the initiative of the attacked and his allies. This expands to include the preservation of personal property.
The bonds of this group shall be no more than the mutual respect and affinity of it's members, and shall not be limitted or enforced.
The primary purpose of the Q1 initiative is a target, which is the establisment of communication lines and to keep free the individuals power of choice in taking advantage of or not taking advantage of these lines. This shall be accomplished by:
1 Dissemination of the agreements of the Initiative by COPY AND PASTE.
2 By defending established lines by the above diplomatic policies.
3 The establishment of discussion groups and links to those groups, with special emphasis on those groups which hold our foundation of agreements with the Scientology Creeds and Codes as a conditional requirement upon entering. These Creeds and Codes shall not in any way be abridged or ammended by "improvements"or "discovery" from those known presently (1999).
4 Any other action of initiative undertaken to forward the Aims of Scientology.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 09:40 am
Revised for spelling.
If this is abbridged, the little Leprechaun who left this on my doorstep swore he would disown it.
We of the Q1 initiative, in accordance with the Code of a Scientologist, do hereby assert our forsworn responsibilities to work for freedom of speech in the world, to stress the freedom to use Scientology as a philosophy in all it's applications in all of the humanities and to actively decry the suppression of knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or data which would help mankind.
As we have offered our services to those purposes established in the codes and policies of Scientology, including the right to free speech, by it's founder L Ron Hubbard, and in the Aims of Scientology, and not to other purposes ASSIGNED by "interpretations" of this philosophy or cutative (abbreviated resulting in a loss ofmeaning) referances of the same, we claim our right and responsibility to pursue those noble goals and grant no authority to those orders which place themselves above the policies to which we have freely offered our service.
As communication lines are essential to the preservation of this cause, any attempt to sever our communication lines will be recognized as an assault against the purposes stated above.
We believe that Scientology as a religion is a congregation, not a building, and that our rights shall not be dependant upon the value or location of our property.
We claim no property or services which are not our own.
Our policies on diplomatic defense will consist solely of the Creeds and Codes. Anyone who, by initiative, wishes to formally represent this group, will counter any verbal or written assault primarily by lines of the Creeds and Codes of Scientology, as evaluated by the Q's, and by the Qs themselves which are the highest level of data from which we are now operating. Our policies for physical defense are not limitted and are dictated by the initiative of the attacked and his allies. This expands to include the preservation of personal property.
The bonds of this group shall be no more than the mutual respect and affinity of it's members, and shall not be limitted or enforced.
The primary purpose of the Q1 initiative is a target, which is the establisment of communication lines and to keep free the individuals power of choice in taking advantage of or not taking advantage of these lines. This shall be accomplished by:
1 Dissemination of the agreements of the Initiative by COPY AND PASTE.
2 By defending established lines by the above diplomatic policies.
3 The establishment of discussion groups and links to those groups, with special emphasis on those groups which hold our foundation of agreements with the Scientology Creeds and Codes as a conditional requirement upon entering. These Creeds and Codes shall not in any way be abridged or ammended by "improvements"or "discovery" from those known presently (1999).
4 Any other action of initiative undertaken to forward the Aims of Scientology.
Author: lil' Leprechaun
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 09:45 am
OK, take the "by" out of #2 and youve got it.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 3 Apr 1999 06:31 pm
Revised because of some things that could have been better.
This isn't carved in stone yet. Any comments?
We of the Q1 initiative, in accordance with the Code of a Scientologist, do hereby assert our forsworn responsibilities to work for freedom of speech in the world, to stress the freedom to use Scientology as a philosophy in all it's applications in all of the humanities and to actively decry the suppression of knowledge, wisdom, philosophy or data which would help mankind.
As we have offered our services to those purposes established in the codes and policies of Scientology, including the right to free speech, by it's founder L Ron Hubbard, and in the Aims of Scientology, and not to other purposes ASSIGNED by "interpretations" of this philosophy or cutative (abbreviated resulting in a loss of meaning) referances of the same, we claim our right and responsibility to pursue those noble goals and are under no obligation to grant authority to those orders which place themselves above the policies to which we have freely offered our service.
As communication lines are essential to the preservation of this cause, any attempt to sever our communication lines will be recognized as an assault against the purposes stated above.
We believe that Scientology as a religion is a congregation, not a building, and that our rights shall not be dependant upon the value or location of our property.
We claim no property or services which are not our own. We wish to enjoy the rights of freedom and spiritual growth, and those rights outlined in The Creed of Scientology.
Our policies on diplomatic defense will consist solely of the Creeds and Codes. Anyone who, by initiative, wishes to formally represent this group, will counter any verbal or written assault primarily by lines of the Creeds and Codes of Scientology, as evaluated by the Q's, and by the Qs themselves which are the highest level of data from which we are now operating. Our policies for physical defense are not limitted and are dictated by the initiative of the attacked and his allies. This expands to include the preservation of personal property.
The bonds of this group shall be no more than the mutual respect and affinity of it's members, and shall not be limitted or enforced.
The primary purpose of the Q1 initiative is a target, which is the establisment of communication lines and to keep free the individuals power of choice in taking advantage of or not taking advantage of these lines. This shall be accomplished by:
1 Dissemination of the agreements of the Initiative by COPY AND PASTE.
2 Defending established lines by the above diplomatic policies.
3 The establishment of discussion groups and links to those groups, with special emphasis on those groups which hold our
foundation of agreements with the Scientology Creeds and Codes as a conditional requirement upon entering. These Creeds
and Codes shall not in any way be abridged or ammended by "improvements"or "discovery" from those known presently
(1999).
4 Any other action of initiative undertaken to forward the Aims of Scientology.
Author: Adept
Posted: Sun 4 Apr 1999 06:46 pm
Care to distinguish it from mest force energy?
huh. i had to think about that for a while.
when I push my finger (a conglomeration of atoms) against this yo-yo (atoms) here, I'm
pushing atoms with atoms. I'm pushing energy particles with energy particles.
Imagine the atoms of your finger magnified to dime size. put a dime on your desk there.
another dime is an atom from the yo-yo.
push one against the other.
Thats what it would look like if we could see that action.
we're pushing around stuff with the same stuff.
so.. distinguish a theta enviroment from a mest force enviroment?
no difference. we'd still be (are) swimming in the same ether.
just... with no boring rules like gravity and that horrendous light speed barrier.
ARC
Adept
Author: Hari
Posted: Sun 4 Apr 1999 07:28 pm
Excuse me. This site has a better background than some of the others and I just want to see what white type looks like on it. I can't test it on the test messages site because that has a blue background and white type is almost invisible on it. Thank you
Author: Ed H.
Posted: Sun 4 Apr 1999 07:36 pm
To Adept, about pushiong around atoms, etc.... there are at least seven "planes" involved in our human sentient existence. Physical (mest) is just the solidest of them. There are plenty more. We are existing in all of them all the time (called being multidimensional) but generally we aware of only one plane at a time we are focused on. When you sleep and/or dream and/or have out of body experiences you are in these other planes. The farther out ones are very high "spiritual"
Plenty of books describe this stuff. The Scn idea of thetans vs. mest is way too oversimplified, way too black and white.
All the best, Ed
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Tues 22 Jun 1999 11:04 am
Dear po,
Re: Your message of April lst
NO-ONE has the authority to intepret policy in an Org. The reference is HCOPL "Out-Tech". IMHO this is meant to be the safeguard that the care of the tech is in all of our hands. This policy goes into the fact that intepretation is quite a serious out-point. There are ABSOLUTELY NO references that I have seen giving Int. Management some sort of different authority on this.
Also each Scientologist is responsible for ethics and correct justice. The reference is HCOPL "Knowledge Reports" - there is also some data there about getting in ethics on seniors....
These are the references that we all have a responsibility to apply....... dangerous as it can be!!!!!!!
ML
Author: po
Posted: Tues 22 Jun 1999 04:18 pm
Thanx anonymous,
I'll look at the references regarding getting ethics in on seniors. It still looks to me that interpretation is the name of the game up-lines. Isn't RTC the "final arbiter of orthodoxy"?
I also had and interesting "cog" about all this. On the student hat, one is pushed hard about the relationship to study and "glib" answers.
Isn't a wrote application of written materials virtually the same as the ultimate in GLIBNESS?
When one masters his craft, he understands the principles and applies them. He becomes greater than the mere memorized principles. He is able to take a complicated concept and explain it in a way that even a child could understand it.
No one doubts the value of preserving early forms, especially something as unique and valuable as scientology, but NO ONE has the authority to prevent anyone from observing and coming to their own understanding as to what something means, or whether it should be discarded.
This "thought-police" mentality in scientology today is ruining the subject.
Scientology is full of newly created words. The entirety of tech and policy is riddled with new definitions that not everyone might wish to enter into agreement with. Take the word "Justice" for example. Scientolgy has a "new" definition regarding the group putting ethics in on the individual.
Most people in this country would probably state that they feel an appropriate use of the word "justice" would mean a sense of fairness and rightness bases on an idea of equality as is practiced in this country today. Scientology twists the meaning to justify arbitrary control on the individual.
Maybe we should at least clarify things so that we can have a basis to at least agree on what RON stated in a particular policy, and then decide if it is appropriate to the optimum handling of whatever situation we are faced with. I do understand the concept that scientology runs smoothly when all accept RON's word as inviolate. The only real problems come in when individuals in the group have the authority to use written policy as a force against others in the group. It happens again and again, and the
final "interpretation" always ends up with RTC.
Maybe I should take your statement to mean what it says...that "NO-ONE in an ORG has the authority to interpret policy, but some guy up at RTC does.
Author: Mike [mike@fza.org]
Posted: Wed 23 Jun 1999 12:17 am
Hi all,
The statement: "NO-ONE has the authority to intepret policy in an Org. The reference is HCOPL "Out-Tech"." I don't think is quite correct.
See HCO PL 4 Dec 1966 ADMIN KNOW HOW - EXPANSION - THEORY OF POLICY in the old OEC Vol 0 on page 305 under the section INTERPRETATION OF POLICY it says;
"Thus when you are interpreting policy it should be interpreted only against EXPANSION as the single factor governing it.
"This can serve to clarify questions about policy. The correct interpretation always leads to expansion, not holding a level or contraction."
I believe that Ron saw policy as a fluid thing, at least initially. He even states (in a HCO PL I couldn't find or on a FEBC tape) that a good exec know how to 'use policy like playing a piano'.
If you can get your hands on a copy of the above PL it gives good insight into the intention of policy.
ARC,
Mike
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Wed 23 Jun 1999 06:04 am
Dear Mike,
What I meant by "no-one has the right to intepret policy...." is (in my opinion!!!!! ) that it is up to every individual person to understand and intepret policy for themselves, and that no-one in the Org. should come along and tell YOU what it means and how is should be applied. We are supposed to find out for ourselves by applying study tech and our own integrity etc. etc........
I don't think we are in disagreement!!
ML
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Wed 23 Jun 1999 07:24 am
Dear Mike (and po!),
Re: the above - what I should have said in my message to po was "NO-ONE in an Org. has the right to intepret policy for ANOTHER".
Excuse me getting a bit passionate about this, but you have this situation in for example the Catholic Church. It is quite a serious "sin" for a parishioer to intepret the bible. That is supposed to be left to the priests (or even the Pope and Cardinals, I'm not sure.......).
That is why I think HCOPL "OUT-TECH" is such an important reference and why any intepretation of tech by anyone for another should be handled as a serious matter. This indeed is supposed to be the guarantee that keeps the subject FREE ie we are all supposed to read the tech/policy and intepret it for ourselves, as is real for ourselves, and if we run into problems get word-clearing or whatever rather than have someone else enter their opinion into it.......
It is not written anywhere that RTC or anyone can intepret tech/policy for another.
As an example of this I once wrote to Ron, back in the early '8Os.... I had a lack of understanding on one of his references. Instead of sending back an explanation (or intepretation) he asked me to go to Qual to apply the study tech available so that I came to MY OWN understanding of the reference (I can't remember which it was now!!!!!).
I agree with you on your posting, about the fluidity of applying policy which comes from the study, application and experience of using it! You would of course, as part of that study, understand and intepret that policy for yourself.
I was just trying to express, that the reference "OUT-TECH" can help all of us keep the tech free by enabling us to report all attempts by others to tell us (or enforce on us) what the tech and policy means.
I am not in dis-agreement with what you are saying!!
ML
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Wed 23 Jun 1999 07:46 am
Dear po,
My messages to Mike clarify a little what I meant!! Your last comment may well be correct, and if things are that way then they shouldn't be!!
There is something in "Fundamentals of Thought" that goes into the fact that in Scn. you are not teaching a being something new, but simply rehabbing their knowledge....
There is also the Code of Honour, and a piece of writing by Ron called I think "On Personal Integrity". As far as I'm concerned, that, plus the study tech, plus policies such as "OUT-TECH" and "KNOWLEDGE REPORTS" IMHO are meant to be the safeguard in keeping this subject FREE.
I agree with you on becoming a master of one's subject, and it is the application of the tech in this manner (rather than rote) and the policy with judgement that is needed.
You are absolutely right (IMHO) that NO-ONE has the right to prevent you from coming to your own understanding, or using your judgement as to whether a policy is applicable (or not)in a certain situation etc. etc. etc.
The Code of Honour, the Creed, the ref. "On Personal Integrity" and HCOPL "Out-Tech" cover this I think. As for
people using policy as "force" against individuals, well, IMHO this is totally suppressive..... but again, there are standard policies on how to deal with that, but I know it is not always easy, and I certainly remember the "thought-police" mentality in the early '8Os. Alas, I thought it had gone..........
And as for Ron's word being "inviolate". The ref. on that NOT being the case is HCOPL "Safeguarding Technology" (I think), (Scn. is not a "perfect" system), "On Personal Integrity" (I'll try and dig out a quote for you.....) and the whole thing that drew a lot of us into the subject in the first place:- Scn. is supposed to be a codification of the laws of life and a tech. that works in life. But that has to be real to you. If you see that it works, you stick with it (or the bits you feel work). As per "Fundamentals of Thought" it is a rehabilitation of your own knowledge....it wasn't invented by Ron. He codified it right?
Oh dear, oh dear, where is the Scientology we knew and loved????? Too many suppressives I fear (you only need one or two!!) and where have all those good (free, thinking for themselves kind of) guys gone?????????
My oh my, I'm feeling kinda lonesome!!!!!!!!
Much Love!
Author: po
Posted: Wed 23 Jun 1999 10:26 am
Dear Anonymous,
Don't feel lonesome. There must be a lot of us out here. Think of the excitement and challenge of rebuilding the church!
Did you ever have some IAS guy read RON's pirates and bums policy letter? Put on your eyepatch and draw your sword!
Now you have the opportunity to apply what you have learned in a way you wouldn't have expected before.
We will take back the knowledge to the good people of the world. And just think, it will be YOU who will make it happen!
Author: Mike [mike@fza.org]
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 01:32 am
Hi Anon,
Yes I do beleive that we agree on this. The problem in the church though is that it is taken to far and is etched in stone. In the church tech and policy HAS to stay the way it is. At least according to the principles it is operating off of. In the FreeZone, my opinion, we are changing, evolving if you will. Moving beyond the church and its stuck ways. Nothing remains the same. You either are going up or coming down. The church is moving down. We are going up.
Hope to see many of you on the 4th!
Mike
Author: Dr Evil
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 10:12 am
Initiative isn't evil...DR EVIL IS EVIL!!!
We can now throw out all policy...
Dr. Evil is here!!!
^#92;image
Author: Dr Evil
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 10:13 am
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 10:48 am
Dear po,
Thanx for your message of 23rd June!! I'm in total agreement with you. We just have to work out a few mechanics on the "how"!!!!
ML
Author: Po
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 11:06 am
Thanks ML,
I was just wondering. As the basics of tech seem to be workable in or out of the church, we should soon have, if not already, some pretty dynamic individuals out there.
With the right intention, I see no reason why we couldn't generate the necessary funds to really pursue all this much more seriously on a broad scale.
Promote independent auditing, independent academies, engage in whatever legal battles are needed for religious freedom, etc.
This isn't happening as much as I think it would if individuals in the independent field were really becoming, or operating at an OT level. Maybe it's just a personal choice not to, and that's ones choice.
I can't say that I have the necessary funds as yet, but I would hope there were others much farther along than myself.
If the cause was right, I can't help but think we would have all the resources we would need to make it work.
What is missing in present time that would be preventing this?
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 12:47 pm
Dear po,
We seem to be chasing each other around the net!!! (Maybe getting the necessary exercise for those sword fights!!!!!)
I don't mean to invalidate your ideas, and you may well be completely right, but give me a moment while I shudder on the phrase "generate enough funds" - sorry, memories of IAS reging!!!!
I'm going to have to dig out yet another ref. for you, I hope I have this at home, something about why an organized group of small beings can easily overwhelm the big, disunited free thetans!!! An example of this, IMHO, (and please excuse me if I get passionate......) was the Roman invasion of Britain in 55 B.C., or whenever it was. I don't want to insult anyone here if they are big Roman fans, but basically you had a bunch of free, brave, artistic, spiritual individuals i.e. the Celts (the Saxons were similar too.......)... along came the tin-pot Romans headed by old J Ceasar (IMHO a psycho), and they managed to overwhelm the Celts (who the individual Romans were afraid of in battle, especially in Gaul, as the Celts were brave, strong fighters.......) as the Celts were all busy being strong on individuality!!!!! (and in-fighting!!!).
Now, I'm humbly considering the likes of you and I (and a few others out there) of being the free beings, the "OTs" (as well as "the bums and pirates").... I'm not much into battles and wars..... the CofS and the IAS are constantly "at war" with this, that and the other (l.5 on the Tone Scale right??)..... the trouble is that if a new group starts a war, wins this, then "takes over the Church", they are likely to dramatize the whole thing all over again.
I certainly think part of the thing is for trained auditors (I am not one yet unfortunately), to audit, audit, audit out there, clear people, whatever, if this is their purpose and they are brave enough to take any possible harrassment.... meanwhile the rest of us, and I mean anyone who can still be "on-lines" and has done a major course and calls oneself a Scientologist, ought to politely ask RTC for all the HCOPLs on the IAS, all the HCOPLs that cancel out the old Membership System HCOPLs (I don't believe there are any.....). As I remember the old Membership System was under the charge of each org. so they were more autonomous and could co-ordinate the affairs of their public more easily. Ask for all the HCOPLs on OSA and all the HCOPLs that cancelled the GO (that I believe was under the charge of Mary Sue.....).... you see, as per KSW, it is our duty to do this...... LRH is supposed to be "source" in the Church (whether you agree with this or not, he is supposed to be).... so what are all these organisations doing being part of the Church that are not based on actual policy??????
Did you get to check out the Jon Randall McDonald sites at all? You see, what are we all doing in the "church", if we are ignoring this sort of situation (with the "SPDs" and all)? I realise that I am aware of this, and for that reason have a responsibility to try and do something.... (I could well even get (potentially )shot for even suggesting the above......) - what worries me is that people coming into Scn. today, either might give up on it (if they are free beings) getting the wrong idea about it, or accept all this IAS/OSA stuff as all correct Scn....... hmmmmm.......
Anyway, I still feel an awful lot of reform has to happen from within, and in fact if we were ALL writing up to RTC on these things, hmmmmmmmmmm, do you think we'd all get shot????!!!! Maybe!!! But at least our integrity would be in!!!!! Yikes! Do you want me to let you know what happens when I write to RTC??????
What do you think?
I think you are right that we could summon up resources.... (not necessarily of the money kind....)... more a pooling of our abilities maybe.....
What is missing in present time???? This is a pretty brave thing we're attempting..... I believe some individuals may well have been beaten down.... I think (IMHO) there has been a lot of suppression of good people... (I have only really just started confronting this myself over the last couple of months.......).....one really has to have a lot of personal integrity right??? And a lot of courage.....
Anyway, I have to say that it is very nice to get this sort of communication from you. I'm beginning to come out of my apathy.... here is this wonderful tech that can help people... and yes, it is for the good people..... Thanx po for communicating and helping me get back some of my hope..... and helping to re-hab my original, theta intention that I had when I first came in contact with the tech........
Much Love to you (and keep the sword practice up - and please try and avoid the "keel-haul"!!!!!)
PS I hope you are not working for OSA, now that I've got all expressive!!!!!!!! That would be rather embarrassing!!!
Though you see, OSA, and RTC should be on OUR side....... RTC is meant to keep the tech. pure!!!! Oh well, never mind, I guess a thetan need a game wot???????
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 02:51 pm
ML, on your statement that interpretation of policy is a serious matter. When Scientology is "interpretted" and that interpretation is enforced to the extreme of stopping standard Scientology (including the primary purposes and goals of Scientology), that is a high crime. When you are talking about direct opposition to the goals and purposes of Scientology, that is about as high of a crime as you get. I think it's called "Making another guilty of the practice of standard scientology."
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 03:01 pm
Concerning the statement above:
"As the basics of tech seem to be workable in or out of the church, we should soon have, if not already, some pretty dynamic individuals out there. "
I agree.
When you're ready to put some targets together, I'm in.
Author: qqqqq
Posted: Thur 24 Jun 1999 03:01 pm
Concerning the statement above:
"As the basics of tech seem to be workable in or out of the church, we should soon have, if not already, some pretty dynamic individuals out there. "
I agree.
When you're ready to put some targets together, I'm in.
Author: Po
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 08:41 am
I would think my first target would be to get a clear picture of what the independent field is like right now. I'm slowly getting a better idea, but if we are going to be promoting alternatives, as well as reform, we need to have a solid idea which practitioners out there are getting consistent results.
Next, I would love to have the mailing list of all present and former scientologists.
I still think this website is about the best overall nexus at the moment. Perhaps there would be a way to promote this site through print ads. I would want to get agreement from our illustrious webmaster about any of this, since I don't know the site's capacity. One thing I like about it here is that it is not overwhelmed. It might be good to set up a seprate site for initial contact.
Next, we still have to decide where to place the effort...
1. On church reform
2. On a "new" church
3. On the overall independent field
4. On assisting the traditional mental/religious fields
5. On developing auditing as a new profession'
Let me know what you think
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 11:29 am
Dear Anon. (2.51 pm 24th!) - I agree!
Dear po,
Now you've got us thinking!!! It is of course important to know the goals and get some organization in... I'm still for church reform at the moment as IMHO there is a danger of us all splintering off into rather ineffectual groups where the tech gets watered down.......
What is your goal with all this??????
By the way, in my last posting to you I said I'd get you a ref. on what I was talking about. False alarm - I looked it up last night and it is really about something else, so please take that posting as my pure opinion!!! Thanx.
But here is another ref. I wanted to give you - you may know it already.... "What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. And when you lose that you have lost everthing." L. Ron Hubbards Ability 125 Magazine (c)1961,1984 by L.Ron Hubbard. All rights reserved.
I think that's probably my fave quote!!
Love, Anon.
PS I have left some other postings for you on "Cute Sea Org girls!!"
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 11:34 am
Dear po,
Further to my message above, I agree with you entirely that we have to know which practitioners are getting results..... the whole point really is "technical results".
There's a lot of co-ordination required here right????
Much Love
P.S. This could prove the greatest game!!!
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 12:01 pm
Dear po,
Just checking something on your comment on RTC being "the final arbiter of orthodoxy". I have never seen an HCOPL saying this! Is this just the general impression you have of what's going on???? I'm interested in your experience..... you see, if you have anyone in an org. trying to tell you how to think or how things are, ask them for a reference..... anything else is purely their opinion.... at least if you get a reference, you can study it, understand it yourself and then make up your own mind whether it is relevant to that situation (or any situation....).... it sounds like you may have run into a lot of verbal baloney and some suppession (not that I want to evaluate - I would be interested to know....).
I remember the very first RTC briefing (in my country) that I consider myself priviledged to attend. (Now, I'm not saying that LRH authorised the RTC - I have seen no policy to that effect...... but at that time I had assumed he had....). It was held by this very ARCful woman in early 1984 (I think!!!!) - her whole purpose was to make sure standard tech was delivered. She was great to have in the local org. for awhile (according to an auditor I knew) because she made sure the auditors got in their necessary cramming and training and held off the executives who were trying to force the auditors back into session for the "stats"!!!! The whole purpose, according to that briefing, was to get standard tech delivered, which after all is the duty of orgs. (especially if you've handed over all that money..... and it's part of the Code of a Scn!!).... now having said that, I dug up some early issues by the RTC last night..... very interesting...... not any mention of the policies that gave them their authority etc. etc.
So who know????
All I know is, if anyone gives you any verbal stuff (especially if it smacks to you of baloney - ask them for the reference!!!!).
Much Love!!!
Author: po
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 12:27 pm
Here a brief quote from the scientology "official" website...
To preserve its objective oversight function, RTC is not involved in any way in the management of churches or in the actual ministry of Dianetics and Scientology to parishioners. Therefore, those responsibilities fall squarely on the shoulders of CSI, which supervises the ecclesiastical management of all Scientology churches, along with the dissemination and propagation of the religion.
RTC stands apart as an external body which protects the Scientology religion and acts as the final arbiter of orthodoxy. At the apex of this pivotal function is RTC's Inspector General Network, which operates from seven offices on four different continents...
you see, it can be written, and also be baloney as well...
It states it is not involved in the management of churches is any way...yet it is the final arbiter.
much love,
po
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 01:17 pm
Dear po,
I get your point. That's quite funny!!! But this is not written by LRH... sorry to harp on about this, but standard tech/policy (which orgs. are duty bound to deliver....) is supposed to be written by or at least signed (authorised) by LRH. This stuff on the website, including the stuff in What is Scientology? is not Scientology.... it is writing ABOUT Scientology.... and not by LRH (unless they use quotes of course)......
Maybe I'm coming at this at entirely the wrong angle.... maybe you are so indepedent and free-thinking that you don't care whether it's in policy or not.... let me know...
and maybe what your goals are here...
I'd also like to hear back from you on some of the other earlier postings (there are a few!!!). (Nag, nag!!!!)
Thanks a lot!!
Much Love
Author: po
Posted: Fri 25 Jun 1999 02:44 pm
I do think the strongest consensus is that the original RON tech should be preserved as it is, but that other techniques can also be beneficial, and should not be overlooked. I tend to hold this viewpoint.
I also get the feeling at times, that many folks do not get a standard bridge within the church no matter how much cash they have to spend.
Also, when RON was doing his "research", he probably just ran these folks quickly through, without all the arbitrary stops and nonsense people find on the bridge today. The average person stops and starts on his auditing, has to deal with the massive PTP of auditing fees, as well as the subtly suppressive environment. I guess the idea is that eventually the person gets through it if he has enough perserverence or cash, and is willing to pay for the inevitable mistakes along the way.
I don't know if it is a good idea to talk about all my personal goals publicly, but for others, I would like to see the best of what is available on the planet readily accessable to all who want it. I would like to see free beings who can choose to play or not play, but who were finally enlightened enough to play fairly. At least around here.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Sat 26 Jun 1999 09:14 am
Dear po,
I'm going to start with the baddish news and move on to the good stuff!!!! I received my regular "glossy" (very glossy!) from the IAS today..... it's full of the usual hyperbole.... on the theme of "bums and pirates" etc. we cannot underestimate what we are up against, IMHO, a whole bunch of PR backed up by that subtle suppression you mentioned! (And sometimes not so subtle, as in the declares on some v. decent guys!)....
So onto the better news!!!
Thanx for your last message! It looks like we are in pretty good agreement. I think Pilot has similar ideas too! (And also perhaps Caretaker....). (You did mention a "consensus"). Paragraphs 2 & 3 are my own personal experience..... with one hell of a lot of peserverence (and cash) I managed, finally, to get products on a couple of very important areas on the Bridge (which I won't go into publicly either!!!!!)...... also one does have to pay for any auditing and C/Sing errors.... I think, probably, if one is well trained then these are kept to a minumum and also one's case runs better because one has less false data of one's own (plus you understand what's happening.....). Don't get me wrong, I am not a "disaffected" public (from the point of view of my lst Dynamic)..... I have had some stellar wins with Scn. but I have sometimes had to fight real hard for them..... especially more recently......
I am in agreement with your last paragraph (except I don't quite understand what you mean by "at least around here" - do you mean with this game, FZ and Scn. etc.???) - I would love all beings to be rehabilitated to the beauty of their own universes and self-determinism.... and yes, everyone absolutely has the free choice to play or not to play. This indeed is part of the definition of a game.... (that's in "Fundamentals of Thought"....).
Thanx for telling me of your goals (at least for others!).
Will you be attending the 4th July event??? Alas, I am too many thousands of miles away to attend!
I would love to be able to get in touch with you personally. Should I try that through "Contacts?". I cannot publicly post any address at present!
Anyway, have a nice weekend and I hope to speak to you again!
Thanx for being out there po!
Much Love
Author: Po
Posted: Mon 28 Jun 1999 06:42 am
Hi,
By "around here" I mean, at least, this planet, or this "shared-reality" or whatever it might be called.
Some people might wish to create a combattive-world, or a world where they are the dictator, or some such thing, and they should have the right to do so, somewhere else. I might even wish to play in those games from time-to-time, once I can cleanly move in and out of them.
But for now, there are too many people here working on their development, and it should be a safe space to do so.
We do need to find a way to contact each other directly. I'm not listed directly anywhere, but maybe we can contact each other through a mutual third party.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Mon 28 Jun 1999 10:54 am
Dear po,
Thanx for your message. Maybe you could expand on the "mutual third party" idea some time. Sorry to be so "dumb" on this (I don't have any bright ideas as yet!).... I actually dislike having to be so "covert" with my communication.... but "needs must when the devil rides" eh???
All the best!
p.s. I guess people should/could have whatever universe they want (so long as it isn't being enforced on others.....). I'm afraid I'm a little "normal" perhaps....I think the universe is unfolding to some degree at least as part of a divine plan and that we all have our agenda in this...... at least I hope I do!!! (Still trying to figure it out a bit!!!! But I know it has a lot to do with aesthetics and high levels of ARC/theta...). Hope to speak to you soon!
Author: Po
Posted: Mon 28 Jun 1999 12:28 pm
Hi,
Maybe if we schedule this right, we can both be on the chat are at the same time. Then, if I post an e-mail address or phone number, it will only be on for a short period of time.
Author: Jeanny Hansen [jeannybtl@aol.com]
Posted: Tues 29 Jun 1999 02:05 am
It almost feels like "eavesdropping" when I see the two of you "Po" and Anonymous interchanging ideas. Again, as I've suggested on other subjects, could you guys at least pick a name, such as PO? Why not post under some identity that you have an affinity for? I personally like my screen name as it allows me to go in or out of my bottle.
Sometimes, although I'm all for peace and harmony,I get into my "Warrior mode", especially if I hear some of the stories that are told by people who contact me and tell me about the stuff that apparently still goes on behind the scenesin the Church.
I feel that we need to work on uniting the independent field by creating co-ordination as to C/Sing auditors who have not been C/S trained and giving the "Innies" some assurance that they can still get there Bridge virually "as-is" in the Free Zone.
I mean, I may not be willing to deliver OT 1 to 3 (because I don't believe in the validity of these levels to give people case gain), but other's would (and I know who!).
So, as far as I'm concerned the only way to connect is to choose someone who has proven themselves to do/have one or more of the following:
a) be experienced in delivering the tech
b) who has been delivering the tech in the Free Zone, even before this term was invented
3) who has been officially declared, so that you know they could not be a plant.
I will always remember what Ron said about defeating S.P.":
FLOURISH AND PROSPER!
IF WE BEGIN TO unite and F.& P., we will eventually overtake the Church, especially because - in the Free Zone - you can apply the Codes, you can speak your mind, you can
have your own reality, without being penalized, or being declared.
I cannot tell you how exciting it was to be able to deliver the tech outside of the straitjacket environment of the Church, when I first left. I still get a kick out of it now.
At the same time, I can't imagine how a highly trained auditor and C/S would suddenly turn into a "squirrel" over night, after he or she has spoken up about an injustice that has happened. In the Church we were trained to an "inch of our lives". Why would we suddenly switch to "altering Scn. processes", except for "translating them", so we don't get sued?
Thank you Po for taking the trouble to hold "Anonymous's hand!" VWD!
Love,
The Genie
Author: Mike [mike@fza.org]
Posted: Tues 29 Jun 1999 07:39 am
Hi Jeanny,
Good post. I agree with almost all of it. :-) One point that should be mentioned though:
"3) who has been officially declared, so that you know they could not be a plant."
If I were OSA I would make sure that the plant had a declare. How hard would it be to write one up and even date it earlier?
Mike
Author: Po
Posted: Tues 29 Jun 1999 07:56 am
Thanx for coming out of your bottle as well as your straight-jacket...
As for C/Sing, would you like to travel around and check-up on what the independents are doing? Actually, most of it could be done by phone, or e-mail. I would hope most in the independent filed would not mind the technical assistance, even if in the end they might not all agree as to what is correct or "standard" for a given procedure or case. At least everyone could start pooling data.
I'm not clear on the new "church" idea as yet, though I might insist that a wider discussion take place on what to name it.
For now, we need to start gathering cash. A simple structure could be set up with voting, and a regular financial statement sent out to all members. What do you think would be a reasonable minimum membership fee? Or should there be a fee at all?
Author: Elf
Posted: Tues 29 Jun 1999 11:28 am
Dear Jeanny, Thanx for your post. I was going to write exactly what Mike did. Excuse me for being a "cynic" but I wouldn't put it past someone in OSA coming up with having someone out there under a "SP Declare" (or anything else in the line of "intelligence").... but hopefully things aren't quite that bad! I would like to hang onto some of my innocence, and I find it a little difficult to be "underground" with my comm.... and a little scared to be in-discrete, especially when getting into ARC with people!! Well, it shouldn't have to be like this! Maybe I'm just paranoid!! (But actually, I do think there are some heavy SPs in the woodwork......). F&P????? Definitely!! Maybe now is the time to be braver and use the handle "Elf"!
Much Love.
Dear po,
The chat idea? I'm a little concerned... I don't want your position compromised one jot!!!! But I guess we should work something out, as this is a public posting area and limited to some degree..... (I can understand how Jeanny feels.....!).
As for the "new Church" idea, is that the one on your list
of where to place the effort that you favour?????
I haven't yet given up (or fulfilled my duty....) in writing to RTC with some very pertinent questions as to what is going on inside..... Maybe I can let you know what they say!
Much Love (Anon. Elf etc. etc. etc.)
PS I don't want to disappoint you, but you may find that a lot of the people posting to you around the place are just - me! I thought maybe it was better to tell you now, in-case you had an incorrect view of our numbers!!!!!
Author: Po
Posted: Tues 29 Jun 1999 12:35 pm
Hello Elf,
I agree that there aren't too many of us here. But it's kind of fun being here now, knowing that there are potentially so many out there that just haven't appeared yet.
What does "F&P" mean?
Regarding the "church" idea, I'm not certain yet. I'm concerned that there are so many different opinions out there as how to form it. My curiosity over the best name is a simple example.
I do think we need a broad vehicle that would assist the entire independent field.
I personally like the idea of a reasearch foundation. It could have tax benefits, yet still embrace all the differing practices out there. This could potentially support a professional/ecclesiastical association also.
Author: Elf
Posted: Wed 30 Jun 1999 09:55 am
Dear po,
F&P means "Flourish and Prosper" (see Jeanny's message)!
I like your idea of a research foundation. I think that the actual CofS should also go for that sort of idea, or maybe an educational trust, rather than pushing for religious recognition... I think that might work better, especially in the UK and Europe where religions tend to be associated with worshipping a god or gods..... but I digress slightly.... I personally would like to see something that doesn't suggest some sort of belief system or dogma so that people are free to think for themselves!!! Your idea would fit in with that!
Much Love!
Elf
Author: Po
Posted: Wed 30 Jun 1999 10:32 am
Hello Elf,
It good to hear we have some agreements! I wonder how much overall agreement we might be able to gather in the overall field. It would take a bit of funding to pull this off.
I would love to have a physical location to start with.
Then it might be possible to support academies as well.
Would it be contrary to this idea to potentially provide living quarters, health insurance, etc. for ex-sea org or similer types that might wish the same sort of committment?
Maybe this is too much like a "religion", but it would be nice to have opportunities available for those who might wish that sort opportunity. We could do without the uniforms, though. I'm still not certain as to the best way to handle this.
One group you might look at, with a potentially similer concept and some pretty dynamic people associated with it is the "workgroup for fundamental spiritual research and mental training" which is available through the "links" button.
Author: Elf
Posted: Wed 30 Jun 1999 11:47 am
Dear po,
Thanx for the info. on the link! I'll check it out! I know what you mean about the physical location. Now, if one or two of us won the lotto.....
Also, there need to be spaces for standard course rooms etc..... for example something like the PRO TRs would be a little difficult to deliver without that and some well-trained C/Ses. This is no easy matter for sure!!! And I don't even believe I'm saying all this!!!! I might panic and pull out of the whole discussion!!!!!! (You see, I still haven't given up on "reform" though a little apathetic.....). Also, I have had those great wins delivered with standard tech (even if I sometimes had to fight a little.....). Up until fairly recently I wouldn't even have dreamt of getting in comm this way...... I can be very good at dreaming but not so good at getting the practicalities together (just warning you!!!)..... however, there may be something a loosely co-ordinated group of "free beings" could do, with people wearing the "hats" they wanted or were best at....
You have some nice, generous ideas..... (the SO thing....)
(But, but, but, "no uniforms?" I'm truly amazed!!!!! (What about all that "cutsy" discussion???? (Jus' joking, jus' joking......)......
Speak to you again no doubt!!
Author: Elf
Posted: Wed 30 Jun 1999 11:58 am
Dear po, yes, I also agree it is fun to be able to communicate in this way..... relatively freely!!!!
Author: Po
Posted: Thur 1 Jul 1999 06:52 am
Yes, I recall what it was like before scientology. I was interested in all these issues, but there were not too many interested in them, except for a random encounter.
When I found scientology, I was fascinated that I found a group who was (apparently) more objectively looking at the larger picture of life. Then the letdown. There really wasn't much free communication. Everyone was so BUSY on their post, that no-one really had any time. There was little real arc.
The most fundamental thing for me was to have good communicaton and association with others who shared your reality, but in most cases, those I found (mostly staff) were only interested in selling a book or a course.
How much trouble would it be to go for a cup of coffee???
It really was bizarre and out reality.
I'm glad we found our way here
Author: jR
Posted: Thur 1 Jul 1999 07:14 am
My experience with the church was that they were relatively polite and friendly when I first stepped foot into the church. I could have sworn I had died and gone to heaven. Everyone was so nice. There were friendly faces everywhere and humble folks without temptation. I even passed one of those cute Sea Org girls as I entered the building. They fed me, gave me a tour of the place, and showed me to thier bookstore. I had never seen so many articles and tapes about Scientology, I was going to collect them all. But as time passed so passed thier hospitality, so here I am.
Author: Elf
Posted: Thur 1 Jul 1999 10:37 am
Dear jR, I think things have changed.... especially over the last four to five years..... I think there WAS a lot more of free theta in earlier years...... everything has become so "snap and pop" and rather dictatorial.....
PS Looks like you've been dropping in on the "cute...." conversation!!!!!!!
Regards!
Author: Elf
Posted: Thur 1 Jul 1999 10:51 am
Dear po,
I'm sure there is a reference on how an org. should be - it may be HCOPL "the Ideal Scene" and it is how you described it - I mean how you wanted it to be! I came in (to Scn.)just in time to get a glimpse of what a Div. 6 should be like for example and was hatted on some of the Div. 6 policies.... it really really should be a safe environment so that people can be left alone to get their wins, then they would bring in their friends and families and have a lively, booming Div. 6!!! This should be going on for as long as they need before they consider advanced courses..... I don't have the refs. unfortunately, but I'm sure LRH talked somewhere about the danger of people being put onto academy courses too soon..... for any progress to be made with clearing etc. there needs to be a big booming Div 6s and plenty of missions!!! Policy is way out on this!! You see, I still think LRH had all the bases covered.... I also have reality on how things were when it was totally "grassroots"...... (I'm talking the 5Os now.....things were secular then...... and no I'm not that old!!!!!)......
I have some more ideas as to physical locations (from an earlier postings.....). Maybe we could start small and have a network of small safe "bases" and organise some sort of get-together or "tour" of qualled auditors, C/Ses and sups.... a sort of FZ network tour!!!!! It could even be international!!! But these are just ideas. I do not even have a "base" yet!! And it's probably unwise to post anything more concrete in the planning department!!
Much Love
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 2 Jul 1999 01:04 pm
As RTC is not a part of the management of Scientlogy, then why should their attempted stops, via the legal system, be less opposed than the stops by the IRS"?
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 2 Jul 1999 01:48 pm
Scientology is Scientology. If we choose to practice STANDARD Scientology, there is no need to call it something else. The tech does not say anywhere that the RTC or the copyright courts have any right to declare or to take away your right to be a Scientologist(same thing).Are our religious and humanitarian dutys senior to the laws of an exterior entity.
There is no need to call ourselves the new church or the reformed church.Being a scientolgist, we are taught(for a fee)that some of the best gains are through teaching. To teach, you need to have the tech.
It seems the RTC is seeking to place the laws which protect it's copyrights senior to the tech itself, and seeking to enforce those laws by the US court system, thus destroying a religion and a religious practice which existed long before the RTC.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 2 Jul 1999 01:56 pm
This is just a guess. The why on why they're so busy is something that seems to account for 80 percent of the motion in an org. It was also declared illegal by Ron, and brought back in a less competitive form( a policy which doesn't seem to be followed.) It goes directly against policy which says that "competition is a trick of the weak to fetter the strong.
The answer
The birthday game
How sweet it was of those in management to offer this one to Ron.
Author: Anonymous
Posted: Fri 2 Jul 1999 02:18 pm
As far as amonimity, I don't know what the odds of getting "bumped off" are. Is that part of why people stay anonymous? That's my reason, and I haven't been declared as far as I know(for speaking in the freezone,which is more of a communication channel than a suppressive group).Nonetheless, I believe it could happen and has happened.That's just a guess though.
Author: Johnny Wizard
Posted: Tues 17 Oct 2000 03:03 pm
Welcome one and all to this world of wonder
Hi everybody, especially my Russian and Chinese friends
who share our same world like everyone else does. We
see ourselves coming to our own extinction, and the
corporate automatons seem to have taken to much control
from us to save our own lives. Monsanto managers have
yet to even be publicly condemned, or even hunted down
for questioning by the corporate media, while
continuing to work at destroying all of life, which
includes yourself in our deteriorating environment that
is a part of us all in every country. That most in our
governments have very little respect for as ourselves
it would seem. Our real scientists are being ignored,
along with our economists, and our public interest
groups are being considered outsiders. We've worked
longer than you can imagine believing that we could
succeed together at this juncture in history, by simply
addressing those who are profitizing off our suffering,
but the literacy rate is so unbelievably low in
America, and their ability to reason, is far from your
average Swede or Cuban. Many, if not even 99.9% know
and feel we're being ignored by the corporate news
machines, and feel desperate to stop Monsanto, and
others of the same who are just really dumb, attempting
to silence you, as those that try with their ignorance
of God to stop us from trying to help yourself, ha, but
I can only commit myself to do so much as John, Jesus
or Satan, who doesn't want to tell you what to do, only
what you think is right for yourself by reviewing the
facts on your own. Vote Nader! There is plenty of
room for everyone including Monsanto employees but
sadly, they're starting to fall to pieces already,
trying to take you with them, instead of admitting to
our error, and that there is indeed a heaven and hell,
with me as saviour. I forgive, you forgive, let us
work with Monsanto to stop them from ignoring us all
wether they want to or not, okay? Heaven is here for
you by simply trying to help ourselves. No, really,
it's this easy. Simply passing this magical document
to someone you care about provides yourself with
immense God like power while working with the universe.
It's a simple request offered from yourself, hi, in
this, the twilight zone of infinity, like in a fractal,
or mandelbrot, that you too, by choice can be a part
of, because you really are, no question about it.
Newspapers have shown to be a representation of our
weakest and most cowardly, probably because I guess, I
can be pretty frightening, who instead of learning by
mistake, or thinking of me as just a man on a mission
with a really big ego problem, leave us all to die in
hell from their deliberate ignorance and fear of
stupidity. Again, I tell you, as anyone else familiar
with this would, billionaire Monsanto board members
have no arguments or defense. (These are the kind of
people Bush wants to give a huge tax break to, instead
of a tax saving universal health care program for
living people that benefits all, and is cheaper, along
with better pay for doctors.) This is why they offer no
comment like the WTO or the World Bank representatives.
This is the unacceptable excuse of America's corporate
news services that are presently trying to feed you, by
claiming this isn't newsworthy by ignoring us like
themselves. This is why Monsanto must be stopped at
all our costs that you don't really have to pay, I was
just kidding. Just because they say they own our genes
doesn't by Johnny law, require us to give up living
free. Period. Farmers, please for the love of God, do
not use their mutant seeds, and after Sept. 15, 2001,
feel free to do what you will to these demons of hell
for trespassing on our property, if they haven't
already by that time been completely shut down by
ourselves. Watching CNN can make me sick. They have
some great people, and a thousand computers, but where
is the news? CNN covers the Israeli conflict like it's
a Jewish thing! These armed soldiers who gun down rock
throwers aren't Jewish. Sharon isn't Jewish, but a die
hard nazi. He walks into the holy site with a hundred
soldiers, knowing that actual Jews are not allowed by
God lest they tread on the holiest of holies. Common
knowledge among us Jewish. We need practicing Jews in
Israel to name him rightly a heretic! A fascist! An
anti-Jerusalemite! He has committed the most heinous
insult to all practicing Jews as Palestinians who
believe in a God. The Palestinian police didn't fire
back until the forth day of conflict, with good
reasons. There was one single death of a non-Jew
soldier two days into the slaughter who's facts are
very shaky, along with the much later, sacrificial
lambs who took a wrong turn because I guess they
weren't familiar with the area. The real God loving
Israelites from both sides of the fence marched
publicly in protest. Most Jews do not support the
American nazis in the region, but want diplomacy. This
is a highly American tax payer paid for Pentagon
equipped military with tanks, fighting, well, picking
off civilians with maybe a couple or twenty riffles and
sling shots! With Arafat willing to call it an actual
war, because public discussions are not his forte.
Here's a man who for thirty years has turned the
faithful against their friends. King Hussein of
Jordan, the Lebanese, and Kuwait. Sounds a little like
me unfortunately. But CNN is working to divide us by
telling us these right wing fascist nazis propped up by
the state department represent the dumbing down of
America, and actually believe in a all loving God who
believes in equality, and a love for our fellow
comrades. What with so many Palestinians losing their
land and houses, businesses, and families, just like
many of the victims of WWII under similar
circumstances. Jews should be outraged! Don't get me
wrong, some of these Palestinians aren't innocent
angels either, and a small few will burn in hell I'm
sure. Let us not fear the truth okay? Arafat walked
out of an agreement that would have provided the
Palestinians with much, with no explanation on his part
that I am aware of, because I'm not completely clear on
where Arafat wants to stand. Like Bush, I'm sure he
believes he cares. I know of many great men and women,
who have brought representation for us humans in the
conflict, and many are of the best that God is as us,
trying with all our minds to offer resolution to a
fight with brainless savages using deadly weapons. We
believe that the Palestinians who represent all
religions in the area have a rightful claim, more so
than anyone else, as anyone who knows half or more of
this history would agree, but they have very little
political representation in the western corporate
media, largely because Arafat doesn't speak English,
and CNN rarely if ever likes giving information out to
the public. Although Frontline did do a documentary a
couple years ago, that anyone who watched it, would
have too easily been angered against the right all the
timers who commit themselves to hatred in Israel, and
so doing, find sympathy for the devil. Let us be
honest with the facts. They've had their possessions
stolen, and kicked off their land they lived on for as
far back as history takes us, including biblical
writing that can be taken the wrong way that we did in
a different world. The Palestinians would and do have
a vested interest in having Jerusalem available to all
religions because they are comprised of just that,
unknown to Americans and Arafat though of course
because this truth the warmongers at the Pentagon do
not want Americans to know about, because it's where
they steal billions from tax payers, and where Arafat
get's to play his leadership roll, and where the right
wingers try to confuse the weaker, more poorerly
educated claimed American Jewish people, that the land
must be governed by a group that does not believe in
any God as creator of all things considered. I mean,
come on, is it pretty hard to believe. The right all
the timers are atheists trying to deceive the Jews into
believing they don't have a rightful claim as a part of
the eternal universe through God. The world community
has repeatedly since the late forties condemned them
for treating the people of Israel unjustly. So your
living in your house and farming the land, that your
great great great great great great great great great
grandfather has left with you, and some American nazi
pounds on your door, and tells you to get out and live
in a ghetto with your family immediately because of
your rightful heritage, and take only the clothes on
your back or be shot, or put into prison, and corporate
America says Americans, who believe in freedom of
religion, and who are against discrimination, and
criminal theft, and who would say they were apposed to
Hitler, can't take a side. Huh? What about life, good
food, and a loving family in the presence of an
omnipotent God thing, you know, like in most of the
bible, Gunsmoke, and The Waltons? What about treating
ourselves as others! Hmmm... I feel like I'm failing
here, but I don't know what else to say. America must
demand the Pentagon tanks to move away from Ramallah at
the edge of Gaza to stop the conflict, or prepare for
extensive American military action ONLY against
Israel's right wing military insurgency, along with
demands to institute the Oslo agreement that was made
but not enforced, with a U.N. tribunal against nazi
jews who continue to try to sabotage, but their cowards
who murder innocent families routinely, and are run by
the always lying to us public nazi themselves, so it's
the right thing to say, but likely they won't stand up
for justice, or the truth, while these stupid evil
ignorant people attack civilians who mostly want peace
to live free like everybody else does. Did you know
the nazi pentagon troops in Israel working with Sharon,
have repeatedly attacked villages in Lebanon, killing
innocent families for nothing, no justifiable reason
whatsoever? That trained American fighter pilots
deliberately with plan and intent, strafed down
children along with Kuwaiti families, running for their
lives with no where to turn in an ambush of perhaps
close to the most evil crime ever committed, not
counting Hiroshima that was dropped when they knew
Japan was already going to surrender, who's fight began
in Pearl Harbor that had functioning radar? Illegal of
course, but as usual no unamerican commander has even
been court marshalled by a real American, and CNN
doesn't want to talk about it, or what justice is, or
show the footage, and some anti-american soldiers are
so flag waving patriotic to the point of using
bacterial agents against all Americans, including those
unarmed Mr. Heston! Justice and truth are, hmmm,
almost independent, and with an understanding of their
important functions, we would be able to defend
themselves from self destruction. There never was any
agreement to steal this land from those who lived
there, just the opposite. No where in the Balfour
declaration does it say these nazis from WWII, or
anyone else, can displace the people of Israel, and the
man involved in the declaration was appalled at finding
out how his interest in helping his fellow Jew was so
thwarted against his intentions. But every time
someone brings up the facts to the floor, the nazis try
to ignore us because their stupid, and hold positions
of power with no ability for our coppers to get to
them. This my friends, was the result of us all losing
to america's Hitler. The World Bank crimes for
example. There is no police organization presently
capable of investigations into their wide open crime
spree. The Morris report covering the World Bank and
those criminally responsible for silencing it, while
displacing two million people, along with farmers, to
leave them live in a garbage dump, and, oh, it's a
nightmare. In the world I am, and will institute, a
crime of such magnitude against humanity, would
guarantee a 25 year sentence with all personal assets
seized, minimum. This is a crime where I have to ask,
why is it that I don't favor executions? Did you know
these evil bastards still even steal there working our
lives, with no corporate news coverage because they
don't allow us to protect ourselves? The U.N. is the
only capable organization to manage such a world
corporate crime division, but we as humanity can't even
presently deal with Toronto. Although, I am in every
respect a nazis worst fear in this new world with
eternity. We are forgiving, and I try to never take
the offensive, only defence that becomes something that
far exceeds in toll what anyone could barely attempt
with violence, like in judo where we together are the
force. E=MC, hmmm, squared. I am willing to concede I
could be wrong if someone can offer an arguement to my
contentions, and I know I have room to grow. This
paper would only offend the ignorant and stupid who
hate others blindly for no good reasons, or can show me
through words how I am being wrong in my assumptions.
If you feel you can't help yourself from hating me, too
bad. I'll be reaping in a town near you shortly, and I
have your time to spare, and the quicker your mindless
hatred is out of our picture, the better for all so we
can party forever. I would like to apologize for being
so hard on the Rockellers, I do believe what I've
stated to be true, but I sometimes forget who I am, and
that we are all only human. The world community
through the U.N. has repeatedly condemned the U.S.
funded military in the region against the children of
Israel, many times with resolutions that the corporate
American news machine refuses to acknowledge exist in
newscasts. Crimes have been committed over and over
again by only the lowest forms of mankind in the area,
usually bred racists who have a hard time thinking
otherwise, people who call themselves Jews
sacrilegiously, who with the help of soldiers, who
again, are not practicing Jews, go into areas with nazi
soldier protection like Gaza, to committed despicable
crimes protected against those that are not, and
innocent, with the known criminals still being left
unconvicted, and not condemned by America, against a
people attacked for only their religions, you know,
Catholics, Muslims and Jews, in a story told before, by
nazis hunting down those who would be deemed unworthy
by themselves. Will we ever learn? This is why
corporate American republicans fight against education.
They know if the public was smarter, they'd hold no
power. The right wing fascist nazis to the core party
of Israel often discriminate against all which includes
themselves, Palestinians hold many religions, and many
views, while the right wing nazis in government hold
none, other then trying to get our respect in being
evil to God as our bothers. These bastards have
ignored their previous agreements, and their word.
Despicable, deplorable, evil, and against all religions
including the atheists. Most, being more than half the
people of Israel support freedom of religion, and
sharing the land that the situation has brought before
us as God, or just me as Johnny. The corporate media
often doesn't provide them a voice though, as they
don't for us others here either, and are our
representation of our most cowardly, to protect your
fear of ourselves. *;*;*;*; us off with your hatred for
us, and I as John may just return the favor. Vengeance
seems to be mostly mine as God I guess. Live and let
live, or ---- off and die. Brain washed un-american
commi soldiers gunning down civilians, using bio
warfare weapons on Americans, Pentagon people who are
billionaires, and bankers who know better than anyone,
they've done nothing for no one, to pay themselves
outrageous wages off our backs and mortgages. Who are
constantly working to keep us divided and at war with
each other. With corporate welfare condoned by those
who leave the homeless to fend without land for food,
or a clean spring to drink from, or in some cases, even
a park to sleep in, like in Toronto Ontario. Oh dear,
we are not doing very well, and if we don't do
something about this, your all going to be done for by
mother nature. She's a babe, but we together can take
only as much as we can take before spewing back this
crap in return. Life is unfair sometimes, well so far
mostly it seems, and I still as the redeemer have not
been publicly introduced, because I guess I'm such a
wild and crazy dude. As I've said, I am prepard to
debate politely the facts with anyone who even wants to
call me names, facts regardless of weather I speak them
or not. I will continue to demand corporate board
members who murder us with their deliberate ignorance
no longer to be tolerated. The nazis from Maryland who
put MMT into our lungs to kill us must be stopped now
at all costs. They must be put into prison
immediately, or be shot. Again, the same problems in
judgement by our stupidest, who give the most evil and
corrupted an excuse to continue, do so by saying,
everything will kill you. I want these monsters in
hell now! Strychnine is natural as is to water, and
cigarettes will kill you, but our rage could be
quicker. Come on CNN, help yourself as if you were
actually living human beings and not a cog in a
corporation. Republicans are generally, but not
always, weak and thoughtless, and could be exposed if
you would challenge them on their facts, or math to put
them in their rightful place, not where they often
could only be gotten by fixed elections. The numbers
just don't add up. Like in America, where the public's
government has fallen so far now, that corporate
America has gotten away with privatizing public
balloting secretly. CNN doesn't want to talk about it
though, or 435 odd pre-registered pre-counted people
with a poll out an hour after the two person debates on
what they thought. We'd like to see that phone room
along with where they got the list to make such
outrageous claims. Generally, I like Jewish food, well
I like all food just about, and most Jewish friends I
have are knowledgeable, witty, and agree with the truth
when they are presented with it, and tell me useless
but very interesting facts on things too sometimes.
Commi right wingers of all nationalities, who work
intently to divide us by religion, sexuality, or skin
tone, do so for our money and often cause our deaths,
because they refuse to believe they are not adults yet
like the rest of us. Your average self proclaimed
right winger's ability to deceive is extremely poor,
and near a dummy puppet level because they don't
generally think or listen for themselves, but for
private publicly funded welfare non-living entities, or
are directly funded by bankers with what is public
money for their private interest to continue robbing us
all, because more often than not, they just don't know
any better. I've addressed this mechanical device in
"Stand Together Or Don't", quite well if I may say you
should read it. They think with our rules toe to toe
they would fail, when they could instead grow and
become better individuals along with the rest of us on
our journey to forever. We're not really that cruel
despite the only way they are presently capable of
conceiving the world as us together. Bankers largely
believe private banks are their private business, when
they are clearly in the wrong on what is our currency.
We've had bank closures in rural areas in Canada
because they weren't taking enough money of ours for
themselves, taking a profit, but just not enough to
suit their tastes for our fine arts and needless waste.
This is not the action of our government, but the cause
of inaction in government to govern ourselves, instead,
leaving our interests in the hands of private bankers
with public funds. Mr. Bush's nightmare coming true.
They're are life positions in Texas that rule above and
over the governor and the people, a state who's minimum
wage is $3.25. Strange eh? We have banks that are
privately contracting their own private but separate
publicly researched and paid for ATM machines, while
removing their own to charge us double! No, triple,
well not exactly, they will take as much as they can
from you until they are stopped by ourselves by you
waking up. No, really. We need immediate and swift
regulations on these bankers now! They're crazed!
They are not working with or for us, but against us, by
bleeding us to the grave, or trying to drive us to war
against each other like they have done time and time
again up until God made the scene to draw this
contrast. Attacking all of us by taking our money and
lives when clearly they have no right to. The World
Bank demands developing countries to close down their
federal banks, if the bought off politicians want to
help exploit and destroy their country's development.
What the hell is a 2% return on social security? How,
tell us CNN, is this possible in America, the land of
freedom? Are you telling me every savings account in
America has less than a 2% return on deposits, while
private bankers first multiply by 10 then, what, take
10%? That goes where? Who's money is that? It is
certainly not no private bankers, share holders, bond
traders or anyone else other than us who are being over
charged, or just plain robbed against our will and
interests, while increasing inflation that burdens upon
us all as pilgrims. Greenspan, if anyone, must know
this stuff no? Billions and billions taken from us
every year to go into the pockets of one or two
un-elected family bank presidents, with a couple hand
outs to the lower echelons, from each bank building who
do nothing for it but the devil work to steal it, and
often use this same money of ours to purposefully
exploit the third world, and think they're personally
worth it, and, I'm laughing now, with some left to
dream they get to do this to me forever over all our
dead bodies! But I'm sadly dead already riding along
this sentence that I see before me never ends. Weee!
We got no ending and I'm Jesus Christ all mighty! An
old old man is me, but, I can compete with any of ya
young whipper snappers in a match of wit by playing the
secret, I'm stupid dumb and ignorant bamboozled triple
ploy. Hiya! Your on a road to nowhere buddy, so come
on along with yourself this could be fun! Castro was
recently commenting on the American people, on CBC
world wide television, comments that are of course
denied from American television to listen to by the
lifeless corporate news departments, and he said of the
good people, "Although they have been fooled many times
and have defended unjust causes, they tend to be
idealistic, and for them to defend a bad cause one must
lie to them first. Therefor, when they believe they
are doing what is right, they support that cause
although it is unjust; but when they discover the
truth, they are then capable of changing their minds."
One example of course was the kidnapping of Elian.
Once Americans learned that not one single person has
ever been executed in Cuba since Castro over threw the
CIA drug runners, murderers and torturers, that the
child's father in fact responded officially in 24 hours
despite all corporate American news saying otherwise,
that the boy was kidnapped by a disgruntled mother from
the father who had custody, and that life is a great
deal better in a country that respect themselves as
family, even under tyrannical attack by dumb
republicans who feel proud for supporting nazis in the
Jewish state of Israel. Castro also stated that "In
our country, hatred against the U.S. people was never
instilled; we accused the government's politics, but we
were not fanatics." "We don't have any blockade, any
hostility, any aggressive measures against the U.S.; it
was the U.S. administrations that adopted these
measures against us." "...They believe (under corporate
controls) they have the best system, (highest human
depravation rate, lowest literacy, highest
imprisonment, private for owner profit schools funded
with public dollars, universal health care left
unguarded because these private corporations have no
defence with the argument, trillions taken from the
average investor in the market place that repeats
through CNBC things are even better than ever, bla,
bla, bla,) and we believe we have the best system in
every sense." This is why corporate America won't allow
Americans to decide for themselves with the facts that
are availible to everybody else in every other
industrialized country that has universal health care,
a federal bank, and a trying to serve the public
national news department. If the corporate news
censors actually believed their own bull, they wouldn't
deny these arguments from the American people that are
well documented facts. Castro continued, "..We can
demonstrate, mathematically, what our system is, what
it does for society, what it has always done, what it's
life and behavior has been, despite the deluge of lies
and slander." But you see Americans, this is how the
corporate America machine deliberately works against
you. CNN allowed statements continually from criminals
in Miami to lie to you without allowing ever, any
rebuttal. Castro again, " Not one extrajudicial
execution, let them search for one. No person ever
tortured, let them search for one. It does not matter
how many times this slander has been repeated, let them
look for one and see if they can find just one.
...Travel around the whole island and ask the people if
they known anyone who has been tortured, yet that
slander has been thrown at Cuba billions of times."
Yet, in America, a person can be imprisoned for life
without trial as a political prisoner if they don't
succeed at making it to the border to claim political
asylum here in Canada, in Cuba, their offered the
facts, living wages, or a trip back to their bank
bosses in America. Cubans are free to travel the
world, while Americans can not. When speaking on
republican corporate blockades against the Cuban people
Castro said, " These events deprived us of practically
all our markets, all our trade and placed our country
in such a terrible situation that only a high level of
patriotic and political consciousness and a great
spirit of sacrifice have made it possible to overcome
such trials, which no other country in Latin America
would have been able to overcome. When 30,000 people
were missing in Argentina, (murdered by the nazis at
the Pentagon) nobody broke off relations with
Argentina. The Argentine military (supplied by the
nazi Pentagon) collaborated in Central America in the
dirty wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua. Nobody broke
off relations with the Central (republican nazi
Pentagon funded) American countries which disappeared
more than 100,000 people. (I've heard the bastards at
the Pentagon murdered closer to 300,000, with the
primary target being teachers and preachers.) You know
(speaking to Canadians who aren't denied American
history, like in corporate America) what happened in
Central America, you must know about it. You must know
what happened in Chile and you must also know who was
behind the coup d'etat in Chile. Where are the guilty
parties? (Still cashing the public unaccountable
American tax payer checks at the Pentagon, that's
where.) Why do they not talk about the guilty parties?"
I think Americans have the right to ask themselves
these questions too when CNN covers American politics,
don't they believe in a democracy of a free America,
that sustains itself with justice and liberty, along
with the awesome power of truth to allow the impossible
dream to come true? If you can't see why Castro is a
hero, it's only because you don't know any better, or
are ignorant and stupid, or likely as an American, have
some difficulty in reading this, just the way the nazi
fear monger private bankers like you, complacent as
slaves attacking each other like hungry and homeless
savages looking for some else to blame. Lot's of good
people in the American nation governed by murderous
cowards, don't get me wrong, but this world revolution
business is intense from a Johnny prospective. I am
still offering my time for maybe a weekly entertainment
show on CNN if they'll have me. Oh, well. Anyway, I
should be arriving in Washington in a few days, along
with a spotlight on myself in one of the brave local
papers, and I'm hoping Mr. Clinton will grant us an
interview to explain why he has not yet taken war
action against Monsanto on behalf of ourselves. See
you there!
I am the revolution,
Your King,
Johnny Wizard
P.S. I am still excepting corporate sponsorship, or
well paid job prospects. Hey! I could write about
restaurants as a critic easy to please! Or, maybe I
could be a clown in a traveling circus, or as a
magician in a show of life's extraordinary magic by
just being myself. God, I think I'm getting giddy, I
love you like too crazy!
Author: Michael
Posted: Tues 17 Oct 2000 05:05 pm
You are the revolution?
Who is Monsanto?
Why did you put my name before Christ?
And why did you include us with Satan?
You don't know who I am,
and you don't know who we are.
I suggest you stop typing such blasphemous garbage
before your soul is taken off to hell forever.
The time is short.
Mikie, the dead angel
Author: Wild card
Posted: Wed 18 Oct 2000 01:11 am
Micheal, I don't think I'd be saying this
but hey that was a reasonably creative piece
of writing, a little wacky maybe but so are
a lot of us.
There wasn't any swearing or psychotic
entheta in the post so let's give it some
credit and let's go a little easy on it.
Just a suggestion to lighten up the
atmosphere.
Author: Complexio
Posted: Wed 18 Oct 2000 07:36 pm
Jolly good show Micheal. Just read an article that
addresses these same truths. Check out the New Dawn
Magazine site and look at an artcle called Escaping the
Matrix.
Complex
Author: Michael
Posted: Thur 19 Oct 2000 09:49 am
Thanks complexio, I'll take a look.
Wild Card,
Anyone who claims themselves to be king and savior thus God in his entire form is simply out of their mind. When I see people like this typing crap like that and then blame me for the same shit it becomes a little annoying. Excuse my language but I have been insulted so many times by being accused of this same viewpoint (i.e. I am your savior). I will not even begin to claim that I have the universe figured out, but obviously, somebody seems to think they do. And then they have the balls to say I am in competition with Koos! Get real!
Mikie, the dead angel
Author: Wild card
Posted: Thur 19 Oct 2000 10:55 am
I guess you have a point Micheal,
I just thought that piece by John Reese
was some improvement as opposed to when
he cusses everybody totally out up and
down the board and kind of goes hay wire
and totally freaked out, So I was quite
releived to see him going back to merely
proclaiming to be king and saviour and
what not, something I have grown quite
accustomed to coming from John.
That to me is John being "normal" it's
the psychotic never ending Koos style
tyrades that bother me because of the
entheta and it causes such a disruption
on the site that John in an "unprovoced"
state claiming to be the king of Syam
and so forth just feels like an athmosphere
of peacefull nuttyness which I prefer above
the entheta.
But then again I haven't been following this
site due to it's unprofessional management
So you where probably provoced by John
earlier that would explain you hard line
approach.
Author: Michael
Posted: Thur 19 Oct 2000 01:59 pm
I am not surprised.
You are definitely needing a life.
You are the one who has been doing all of this shit,
you are the one who thinks that you are savior.
You're out to lunch buddy boy.
Get a brain.
Mikie, the dead angel
Author: Wild card
Posted: Fri 20 Oct 2000 07:51 am
Temper temper !!
That's not Micheal,
That's John posting under a different name.
Even complimenting John on his transition from
being a koos II, to the much more pleasant (although
equally nutty) persona who mere proclaims to be god,
doesn't seem to be good enough for mr. johnny
Face it John, you just object to me communicating,
full stop, well I'd have be outa here long ago if it
weren't for your constant attacks !
Well, if that's the way you want it fine !
A big poo poo to you, you bitchy thing you !
Author: Johnny Boy
Posted: Fri 20 Oct 2000 05:04 pm
No, it's your mom calling me home for sex.
I'm cuming yu little whore, just shut the fuck up!
Author: Wild card
Posted: Sun 22 Oct 2000 10:26 am
Thanks John for that glimps inside your
decayed spirit ! Now we all know !!
Freaky you !
See ya ! wouldn't wanna be ya :)
Author: Johnny Boy
Posted: Sun 22 Oct 2000 03:32 pm
Once again your stupidity does not amaze me.
It doesn't impress me, and I'm not amused.
Decayed spirit?
What the fuck does that mean?
Are you a Scientologist or something?
My money is on the yes answer.
You're a no good scio fruit loop.
Adriana's little elfling.
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