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Jesse Prince Interviews: Tape 3 : Part 2 L: OK, who's next on the list? J: [Reading] "There is a study about miscarriages and birth deformities among female Scientology staff members, particularly in certain divisions of Scientology. This was done because even internally, they were alarmed at the number of babies being born deformed, with extremely low rate, and with a lot of difficulties." Well, the common practice for a woman in Scientology, in the Sea Organization who gets pregnant is being degraded for number one being pregnant. They're put under undue stress and they're told that they're going to still be demanded to perform their duties, just like they would if they were not pregnant. Very often these women don't... [END OF SIDE OF TAPE] ...They are just known to have miscarriages and the women don't take care of themselves, there's no prenatal care whatsoever, I've never seen a woman have prenatal care. L: No prenatal care? J: No, none whatsoever. Never ever seen a pregnant person been allowed to have any prenatal care. L: How many pregnant women have you seen at Scientology that you know, that you don't believe had any prenatal care? J: A few, Kathy Rinder, Sue Price, this one that I was telling you about, Spanky Taylor ? damn near lost her baby, it was born at 3 pounds- Cindy Schafner, when she was pregnant. You don't go to a doctor, you don't do nothing. L: Why no prenatal care? J: Because, I don't think they want to spend the money. I think it's a financial issue. It's like the person is already doing a bad thing, why throw money at the bad is the thought. L: Continue. J: [Reading] "Don Larson was beaten." I didn't see this happen, but I know him. I don't doubt that he was beaten. [Reading] "Ron Miscavige OT 7, married to Loretta Miscavige, an auditor and nurse, suffers deep depression from behind closed doors. He seems happy and jovial, and the ideal Scientology care, but he suffers quite a bit from depression." I think this very much is the case. My first association with Ron Miscavige was after he had been involved in some kind of rape incident with a young woman. Some very serious Scientology resources went into containing the situation with his father. L: What do you mean by serious. J: Private investigators, lawyers, people talked to the press to make sure there was no story about it. A lot of money was exchanged, in getting his father through that. He was immediately brought to Gold with the mother, where they were saying they were having marriage problems. David Miscavige's idea was to end the marriage, because his mother didn't want to be in the Sea Org. She wanted nothing to do with it. He kind of convinced his father he should be in the Sea Org because he's getting into too much trouble out there. As his father decided to join the Sea Org, his mother didn't, he arranged for their divorce. L: David Miscavige arranged his own parents' divorce? J: Yes. And his mother, his own mother, from her lips, I heard her say he was like a little Nazi Hitler, he was like a little Satan. She was very disgusted with him. She went on ahead and gave the divorce, and kind of disappeared for a while. Ron Miscavige was very often depressed and fits of, he would just have fits and start screaming at the top of his lungs. He would go from way up there to like, "Oh, I can't do nothin', I feel bad, I'm sick, leave me alone, don't want anybody around." He was up and down like this, quite regularly. Like he was seriously unbalanced, which is like a little mirror into his little son. L: When you said that money was thrown at people to quiet the story of David Miscavige's father rape, the rape that he performed on someone... J: Right. L: ...do you mean that cash was given to silence the rape victim, or to silence government people, or political investigators? What do you mean, what's your knowledge there? J: My actual knowledge is nothing concrete. This is who I know who went to deal with the situation. David Miscavige himself, Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock was there, about 5 different attorneys, Larry Heller being one of them, Shermans were involved with it. All went down when it happened, and they went with money, and the intention to make this go away. L: Were there criminal charges? J: Against Ron Miscavige? L: Yes. J: I believe there were, but somehow he got out of them. L: So, the criminal charges were dropped when Scientology and its lawyers and its money came in? What county was this in? J: I don't know? L: What state? Do you remember where the rape occurred? J: It was in Philly? L: Philadelphia? So Ron Miscavige was charged with rape and all the charges disappeared? J: Everything about it disappeared, the story, the information about it, it's just gone. I mean they stayed up there for about a week. L: All of them, right? Who paid for this, did the church of Scientology pay for this? J: Yes. L: So, David Miscavige potentially could have written out $30,000 $40,000 $50,000 $100,000 maybe more during this week to change, to get his father off the rape charges? J: Right. That's a certain fact, being that he brought outside people in there and they had to be paid. So you can at least say just to pay them, along with all the investigators and the attorneys was that. L: And the PIs. What PIs do you know were involved? J: Ingram was up there. L: Ingram was up there. What would allow him to pay this money out of the church. What if this happened with...Was Ron a member of the Sea Org at this time? This was a public person, that David Miscavige was using the church assets to buy him off a rape charge? J: Right. L: Would that, could any other staff member in Scientology write checks out for public person who got in trouble? J: That was the one and only time I've seen it happen. L: You said Sherman Lenske, the two brothers there. What is the role of Sherman Lenske in Scientology? J: They, as I recall them specifically, they would arrange to make sure, or get them advice to make sure that it was covered up, that L. Ron Hubbards' authority and control over all corporations was covered up during the time he was living. They also advised him on certain things to make LRH not do, and not say. That was also a big discrepancy and problem, that ended up with the brokers. His attorneys would limit LRH's control more and more. The excuse was "We give you any kind of money you want, just shut up and take the money and let us run things." L. Ron Hubbard felt like he was just pushed out of the picture, not that he shouldn't have been, because he was pretty damn crazy, and I'm not justifying one way or the other, but that was the struggle with the brokers and L. Ron Hubbard. David Miscavige I believe, just forced L. Ron out of existence. L: He was just taking control away from Hubbard a little piece at a time while he was alive? J: Yeah, and L. Ron Hubbard saw it. I had to sec-check David Miscavige on this. L. Ron Hubbard asked me, "Please find out what is his intention, what is he doing by making it so I can't even sent a dispatch or order anyone to do anything that I normally do." L: L. Ron Hubbard believed that David Miscavige may be trying to take over control of Scientology? J: Yes. L: And he was worried about it? J: Yes. L: He sent you to.. J: ..investigate it. L: To do a security check, and find out any overts and evil intentions... J: ...activities that he had been doing. L: When you sec checked Miscavige on that, did anything come up? J: Yeah, he was in complete disagreement with L. Ron Hubbard, he was in complete disagreement with Pat Broeker as to what should happen and when it should happen. And he was sick of giving them money because he said they just wasted money. L: So he was even thinking of cutting L. Ron Hubbard off from money? J: Right. L: Let's talk about Lenskes, the attorneys. J: These are the attorneys that gave him all of the advice, and worked with Lyman Spurlock in order to set up the corporations and make them seem somewhat virgin and dissociated from each other, which effectively moved L. Ron Hubbard completely out of the picture. L: Do you believe the Lenskes attorney, Sherman and who else? What's her name? J: I don't remember. L: The Lenskes, this law firm, these two people. Do you think that they were aware that they were committing a fraud by hiding the real control of.... J: I think they knew it implicitly, there was no question. L: Were you ever at a meeting where they said anything or did anything that implied that they knew L. Ron Hubbard controlled Scientology, and they were trying to create a... J: Absolutely. L: Can you... J: I was there when both brothers were there, I've been there several time, 10 times, 15 times. They were regular. When the probate situation came up, they were the attorneys for that. They were doing all of the advising and stuff like that. I was privy to some of those meetings, which covered many subjects, as opposed to having people running in and out. At that point in time we were just allowed to stay there and listen to everything. Yes, they were very much aware of the destruction of the documents throughout the different Scientology corporations to show no L. Ron Hubbard control. L: Did they ever direct that those documents be destroyed to hide from the government, from the IRS, from anyone who looked at Scientology's corporate structure? J: Yes. They told David Miscavige in no uncertain terms, "None of these things, these advises, can be anywhere." L: So, in essence, destroy this evidence. The attorneys did. J: Right. L: The Lenskes, were they aware of the actions of the private investigators. J: Very much so. L: Were you ever sitting in a room where any... J: I'll tell you a specific thing that happened. Marty was bringing up something about something PIs were doing. I can't tell you the specifics, but I can tell you is this. Sherman leaned over to Dave and said, "Look, I don't want to have this kind of talk around here. I don't know what your security is, I don't want to be a party to hearing this stuff. I know about it, but, not in a room full of people like this." L: Marty was talking about illegal operations that private investigators were doing, and Lenske was sitting there and said... J: "Woah, wait a minute, I don't want to be here." L: Were you ever at another meeting, or any other meeting where the Lenskes maybe, a smaller group, where any illegal activities were discussed? J: Similar situation. We would all be in a meeting about one thing, and then we would bring up investigations and who we were going to have do what, and they would excuse themselves. They didn't want people seeing them knowing about this stuff. They very much worked with David and Lyman, majorly those four, because David would then come in tell us what Sherman and his little brother, Dan, I think it was, would say, and we would act on that advice, based on the information they were given about investigations from like whatever. L: Do you recall any of the comments that David Miscavige said that the Lenskes wanted to have happen? J: Not specifically. L: Do you believe that the attorneys, there has been theory that the attorneys control Miscavige, and Miscavige controls Scientology. Did you ever see anything to make you think that that real control of Scientology exists with the Hellers and the Lenskes and that they have enough on Miscavige to take Miscavige out and Miscavige... J: Yeah, I think there's definitely that kind of relationship that exists there, but I think that their hands are so dirty and blood drips from all their hands that they protect each other. L: So, they all go down together, and they all survive together? J: Right. L: What kind of money do you think these, the Hellers, and the Lenskes are taken out of Scientology every year? J: Many millions. L: Millions of dollars each year? J: At least when I was there, I can't speak of what's been happening from 1990 to 1998. I know that during the time I was there, 1982 to 1987, millions. L: Estimate how many millions might have went to the Lenske firm? J: 7, 8... L; 7,8 million. The Heller firm, Larry Heller? J: I'm sure he made about 4 or 5 million. L: Were they performing lawsuit duties, or was this... J: No, they were just acting as counsel. They had other little attorneys, they would discuss it with Dave, Norman, sometimes. Norman is just not that bright, he just doesn't get it. It would majorly be the CPA, Lyman Spurlock. L: Do you think that they were being paid for work, or being paid to just have their piece of Scientology because they had been involved in some of these activities and everybody has to have their piece of the pie? J: It seemed like to me, they had a definite piece of the pie. There were just so many attorneys in Scientology, all these juniors. Earl Cooley never held the position like Heller and the Lenske brothers, he never rose to that, never, never, never. These were L Ron Hubbard's personal attorneys. How useful they are today, I don't know. They have probably been retired to a greater or lesser degree because there is only so much of that people want. L: Let's talk about the L. Ron Hubbard estate. Are you aware of any fraud in the probate or in the getting the Hubbard to sign any kind of coercion on any Hubbard family member to sign away their rights to the estate, any threats, any intimidation? J: Don't ask me too much at once. What I know about the probate case is that L. Ron Hubbard, it was being demanded that L. Ron Hubbard appear on his own behalf. I know for a fact that everyone, including myself, knew exactly where he was at all times. The court was being lied to to say "We didn't know where he was." They could have produced him at any time. L: All the Scientology officials that were swearing out affidavits were committing perjury? Were the lawyers aware that they knew where Scientology was? J: Yes. L: So the lawyers, who were the lawyers, Heller, Lenske, these lawyers were lying to the probate court, having full knowledge that everybody knew where L. Ron Hubbard was: J: Right. L: So they committed the fraud to keep L. Ron Hubbard from appearing? J: Yeah. And, you got to dig this point. The reason being is because David Miscavige and the Lenske brother didn't think he could stand up to it. They didn't think he was stable enough, they thought he was a little fucking crazy. I got this straight from David Miscavige. L: David Miscavige said that he believed L. Ron Hubbard was crazy? J: Yeah, couldn't get up to this, and it'd be a mess. L: That he was not functionally aware enough, or mentally capable enough? J: Right, mentally capable of getting through appearing in court. L: So, Miscavige, you heard this. Was anyone else in the room when you heard this. He said to this to me private. He said, "Jesse, listen, you've got to grow up, you've got to know something, OK? L. Ron Hubbard's not ready for this." He looked me right in the eye. He said, "No, we don't want this happening." Because I asked him. This is during the time when he and I were kind of like buddies. We'd go out and exercise together, play racket ball and stuff, and he started opening up to me a little bit. L: And he said he wasn't read for it because.. J: He wasn't mentally stable. He said, "There's just some things about L. Ron Hubbard you don't know." L: This was in when, what year? J: 1985, could be '86. L: Other things that could be fraud, that you might interpret as fraud in the Hubbard estate? J: I know that a big battle was going on at that time between David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard, because L. Ron Hubbard thought his hands were totally tied. He was trying to go to other people besides David Miscavige to try to help him continue to have control over the church. L: That's when he went to you to do the sec check. After Hubbard got the results of the sec check, did you report to L. Ron Hubbard that David Miscavige disagrees... J: I reported to Pat Broeker. L: Did Pat Broeker get that to L. Ron Hubbard? J: What he did with it, I don't know, because I never heard that. L: You never heard if Ron got mad? J: No, never heard anything about Ron, never even got a thank you, which was unusual. Normally when I did things for him I'd get a response. Or I'd get a gift, a leather coat, a ring, or something. L: You'd think that if you had just given him the information that David Miscavige may be trying to take over the church and cut off his cash, that Hubbard, generally was known as having an incredible temper... J: He was having that temper. L: ...would respond in some way. Did you think it was odd that there was no response whatsoever? J: Yeah. L: Do you have any idea what could have happened? J: Yeah, he never got the message, or you know, and I just have a theory that I heard, by that time that he was pretty far gone, and couldn't hold a train of thought anyway. L: Who else told you Hubbard was pretty far gone and couldn't hold a train of thought? J: Rick Aznaran. L: How would he know that? J: Because he was there, and the hired farm hands that they had said that -- Rick Aznaran related this story to me -- that often they would hear L. Ron Hubbard screaming at BTs late in the night. He was heavily medicated with drugs from Dr. Dink like valium, the this the that, and the other thing. L: Tranquilizers? J: Tranquilizers, and then he's experimenting with drugs, he's getting any kind of drug he wants to from Dink. L: Any possibility of anti-psychotics? J: Yeah, I do believe he had some of those too. Rick said there was a cabinet full of all kind of prescription medicine that you could ever imagine when they went to where he was an opened his medicine drawer. He said that amazed him because it's a strict policy of Scientology not to take any drugs whatsoever, any kind of medical drugs whatsoever. You just don't take them. And here he had a zillion of them. I've also since talked to Dennis Erlich who told me about a person who used to deliver cocaine and marijuana to L. Ron Hubbard, as well as LSD and other things, and knew him just in passing because Dennis was having an association with him or something. They were at some concert together, because Dennis does concerts. They got to talking, Dennis mentioned that he'd been in Scientology, and this person said to him, "Oh, I know L. Ron Hubbard, I used to bring him his drugs up there in Preston where he was." L: Anyone else, at this point in 1985 that you can recall said to you, that had experience with L. Ron Hubbard, that he was not mentally sound or coherent, or competent? J: Pat Broeker kind of gave me that idea. L: What did he say that made you believe that? J: He just said, this is just after we did that sect check. He said, "Well, I think you did a good job. The old man has a lot on his mind, and we're just trying to keep stuff off his lines." Which is Scientology jargon, which simply means that he is a little bit tied up and what he doesn't know won't hurt him. L: Did you hear anybody else besides David Miscavige and Rick Aznaran, Pat Broeker, imply to you that in 1985 L. Ron Hubbard was mentally incompetent? J: Vicky mentioned to me that she had gotten word prior to him dying that he was sick. She didn't know how it was, she just told me she had talked to Annie, who said he wasn't doing well. That's the beginning and the end of it. L: Continue with.... J: Now after he passed, I was there, when Mary Sue Hubbard was made to sign an agreement, I do believe it was $100,000 to relinquish any kind of claim on the copyrights, or trademarks, or bank accounts, or anything to do with the Scientology fortune. I was part of like a 12 or 17 man team of people that just invaded her house, and was all a pretty cordial affair. She didn't want to sign the damn thing. Lawyers were there, David Miscavige started screaming, "You are going to sign it!" L: He was screaming at her, "You're going to sign this document"? J: We were all there, browbeating her L: 12 to 17 people? J: Yeah, all in Sea Org uniforms. All in cars everywhere, just going in there and overwhelming this poor little old lady. L: Would u say that you were an intimidating presence? J: Beyond any question. L: Would you say that Mary Sue Hubbard was coerced into signing an agreement? J: It's beyond any question. As well as Arthur, I was there when he signed it too. He got $50,000. L: He got $50,000. Did they have their own lawyers there who looked at the documents? J: No, no. They had no representation. All the Scientology lawyers were there, and they would just sit down, this is what they lawyers say, sign here. L: Were the allowed to read the documents? J: Yeah, but I don't think they knew what they were reading. L: So the Scientology lawyers were there, did they act like they were representing Mary Sue Hubbard or Arthur in advising them in any legal way at all on the document? J: No. L: What lawyers were there? J: I believe Larry Heller. L: Anyone else? J: Not that I specifically recall, but that doesn't mean that no one was there. L: So, Larry Heller was there in this incredibly coercive environment. Were these men, these 12 to 17 people in Sea Org uniforms? J: All men, except Vicky Aznaran. L: Were they big men? J: Big men. Lyman, Norman, Marty, me. L: Was there any kind of spoken or unspoken threat that if she didn't sign this document there would be trouble for her or her family? J: Trouble for her, yes. L: What was said? J: Going to get sec checked, going to get auditing, going to get this, ethics, whatever. She blew up, she said, "No, I'm going to sec check you to find out what the hell you're trying to do to me." L: So she was threatened with a security check, and ethics, which meant that she would have to work through conditions and do all kinds of menial, manual labor? J: No, just have someone sitting with her in her house. She wasn't very functional. She had a couple of Scientologists who watched her every move and reported to David Miscavige every day about her. L: They lived in her house? J: They lived in her house and reported on her every single day. L: They were writing reports on her condition? J: Every single day. L: Was she sickly? J: Very sickly, fragile woman. L: Was she on medication? J: No, I do not believe that was allowed. L: So, she was sick, she had Scientology people spying on her before these 12 to 17 people came... J: During and after. It was all set up. They told what she did every moment of the day. "We took her to the mall today, she bought this today." Neville [?] was reporting to David Miscavige every day. L: Personally? J: Personally. L: Were they worried that Mary Sue Hubbard would...What were they worried about? J: That she wouldn't sign exactly what they wanted her to sign. L: So, she had no choice? J: None. L: 12 to 17 large men in uniforms standing around her .. J: ..telling her she's got to do it. L: Other people were telling her to sign it? J: The people were telling her to sign it was Norman Starkey, David Miscavige, the attorney just handing it to her telling her this is the release form, or whatever. I never said a word when I was there, Vicky never said a word, I don't think Marty spoke to her. L: Why were 12 to 17 people in uniform necessary? J: Because David Miscavige said we need to go in there. Mark Yeager was there. David Miscavige said we need to go in there and show a unified group of people from the church that we're running things and it's got nothing to do with her and she is not entitled to anything. L: Did he say that? J: Yes. I'm paraphrasing pretty much what he said. David Miscavige said she is lucky to get what she's getting. Ray Mithoff was there. L: Was he going to convince her that she wasn't entitled to anything? J: Yeah. And, I'll tell you the moment when she actually relinquished and signed the document, they pulled out their ace in the hole. She was actually kind of sad that he died, because they had been separated and hadn't talked for a long time. Actually, they hadn't be en talking that much since she had gotten out of jail. She asked Ray Mithoff with tears in his eyes if he had said anything, or asked about her before he passed. He said no, he didn't mention your name. At which point after the meeting he reported with glee how he know that had really got to her, just to know that she's a piece of shit that he never said anything. At that she bowed her head and they just stuck the papers underneath, like this, and she started signing. L: She had no representation. How much time was she given to think and read, and think about whether she wanted to sign and waive her whole inheritance, her children's inheritance. J: A couple hours. L: Alone, she was left alone? J: No, never alone. We stayed there for 2 hours. L: For 2 hours you, David Miscavige.. J: Norman Starkey... L: ...just kept talking at her, they screamed... J: they screamed. L: Loud? J: You could hear it outside with the door closed. L: Screaming at her to sign this document. J: And telling her we're going to sec check you, and you're out of ethics and all of this. L: They threatened her with all these punishments in Scientology? J: Right. L: And the lawyer sat there and watched this. J: Right. L: Arthur went through the same thing? J: He was much more submissive because he had been gotten to earlier. He escaped, ran away from the church, went to Hawaii. They had PIs track him down. He just wanted to be away. L: What do you mean, gotten to earlier? J: Like I say, he wanted nothing to do with Scientology any more, nothing to do with the Sea Org. He just wanted to be a normal person. He escaped, dyed his hair black, assumed names, all this stuff. Ended up in Hawaii, just kicking around, having a good time. They found him, escorted him back. L: They sent PIs or someone out to find him? J: PIs different church members, and brought him to me. L: Physically? J: Physically, brought him to me. L: Was it with his approval, or was he kidnapped from Hawaii? J: I think his brain was scattered because they had coerced him all along the way, and now this was his thing. L: So they brought him to you, why? J: To audit. L: To audit. Why do you think he was gotten to sign this thing earlier before Mary Sue, what made you think he was going to go along? J: Because I think his sister, his two sisters signed it willingly signed it. They were probably were used to coerce him to sign it. Diana and Suzette, who were still both in the Sea Org. L: How much did Diana and Suzette get? J: I think they got $50,000. L: $50,000. Were they, did they have attorneys that represented them? J: Like I say, at no point did I ever see them having any attorneys. L; They had no legal counsel? J: No. Intimidation. L: This is for Arthur and Mary Sue. What do you think, do you think that Suzette and Diana had attorneys? J: I can only speculate on that, Lawrence, and I think the answer is no. The other two didn't, what the hell makes them special? L: Do you think anybody said to them that because they were the family and the heirs that they had complete rights to all these assets? J: No. Quite to the contrary. I'll tell you what they were told by David Miscavige because I heard these words come out of his mouth: "Everything that L. Ron Hubbard did, he did for the church. We are the church, not you. Therefore everything is staying right here with us." That's the way it went. L: Did the lawyer ever say anything to them about... J: Silent. L: Never said anything about a state law or anything like that? J: No. L: They did everything... Did David ever, or Starkey ever. J: No, you've got to me, because this gets frustrating. I told you exactly what happened. Raymond up and dropped the bomb on her that he didn't care about her, she hung her head and just started signing whatever they stuck under her hand. L: Trust me on these questions, there's a reason for them. We'll talk about it when we're done. Did anyone tell her that the law said that... did anyone imply that the law was not on her side? J: No. L: So they just simply said, we own this because Hubbard did it for us, sign the document, with 12 to 17 men in uniform standing around her an intimidating presence, screaming at her. J: No, everybody wasn't.... L: Just Miscavige. J: Norman and Miscavige. He introduced us, he said, these are the people in RTC, they do this, they're running things, not you, not the family. Here's international management, Mark Yeager, he's running things not you. Here's all the services, you're not part of this. L: Do you think the Hubbard family had any idea that his assets were worth from $100 to $400 million? J: No. L: Do you think that them receiving $50,000 each and Mary Sue receiving $100,000 for the estate of L. Ron Hubbard, do you think they would have done that if they had legal counsel, had there not been people standing in their room 12-17 men, women, in uniform, and being screamed at? Do you think they would have done that after careful selection? J: I'll say this, the answer is obvious. David Miscavige had a smile on his face for nearly a week after he pulled that off. I mean he was happy, happy, happy. L: He just made $400,000,000. J: Or more. I think it's a lot more than that. Can we take a break? [BREAK] L: Let's go back to fraud in the Hubbard estate. Anything else you know about any of the asset transfers, anything having to do with how the Hubbard family was manipulated maybe prior to them being given these ridiculous documents to sign, that signed away hundreds of millions of dollars of their inheritance? J: This is another incident that I was directly involved in. This was like a couple of weeks after I was brought up to the Hemet location, which I didn't want to go to in the first place. There had been a situation where Diana Hubbard wanted nothing else to do with the church. She had married some record producer guy, his name was John Ryan. He was interested in her as an artist, and she just wanted to dissociate herself from Scientology. Well, she effectively did so, and she was extremely non-cooperative. Now this was a nightmare for David Miscavige and I guess L. Ron Hubbard. Because L. Ron Hubbard was concerned with Roe Ann, Diana's daughter, not being within the confines of the church. For a long time after Diana's decision to leave the church, and which she did, you know whe used to have that penthouse at Flag, on the second floor, she just abandoned that, ran away, married this other guy. L. Ron Hubbard had sent down orders to get her to turn over custody of Roe Ann to John Hallwitch, her former husband and father of the child, who was still in Scientology in the Sea Org. He came from quite a wealthy family himself. It was my job to go there and make her sign over legal custody of the child. I was given mission orders by Miscavige and Starkey, who talked to me extensively about things that had been done, and what was she was doing. David Miscavige mentioned that she was in the Mile High Club, giving people blow jobs on the airplanes, and this and that and the other thing. Screwing this one and screwing that one, and just kind of out in life trying to be a normal person is how I see it at this point. I was to go there, she could do that, but I was to do that and get her to sign over custody of her child to her former husband, which I did do. L: She actually signed over custody of her child? J: Yes. L: What did you say or do to make a mother give up her child to an organization she wants nothing to do with? J: I told her just basically spoke to her about the goodness of Scientology and the Sea Org and all of the things it was trying to do. That she had chosen another path, and it was obvious that she was going to do that, but to please let Roe Ann grow up in an environment where people would look after her and she would be perfectly taken care of. Of which she was. She was like a child prodigy; she lived like a princess in the making. For some reason on another, there was literally no resistance. She just said OK and signed it. I was there all of 45 minutes. By the time I finished my speel, she had her damn pen in her hand. L: You never had to say anything negative, no threats, no nothing? J: No sect checks, no I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. She just did it. She was tired of fighting, she was pale. I was the last person in the line of many. Vicky Aznaran went there and screamed at her, had a fit, totally screwed the whole thing up. David Miscavige went there, screaming at her, telling her how horrible she was. L: So, people had already taken her through the baiting, they had already wore her down. J: Months earlier. L: How many missions went there to try to get her kid from her. J: Two. L: David Miscavige and Vicky Aznaran, and you know for a fact they screamed at her? J: And failed miserably, and she just got worse. L: Did they threaten her? J: I'm sure they did, but I wasn't privy to that. I just know how they act, the kind of people they are. L: When you came there she was pale? J: Kind of listless, kind of. She had been in a giving up position, like I just give the hell up. I just spoke to her, I said, these are my views on it, you know why I'm here. This is why we're doing it. By the time I got out my speel she said, OK, where do I sign. No representation, no attorney, nothing. L: Signed over her... J: Her only child. L: ...without an attorney. Did you take the child with you? J: The child was already in the custody of the church, this was just a legal matter. L: How could the child be in the custody of the church if the mother... J: The child was in Hemet California, and the mother was in Florida at the Flag. How that happened I don't know, but that was the existing situation when I came into it. It was just a legal wrap-up that they were trying to do. L: Anything else that you know that happened to the Hubbard family prior that might have set up a situation before they signed their inheritance away? Anything that might have affected that? Did the church run any covert operations on them? J: Beyond what I told you about Art with the Hawaii trip, they were the only children that I was somewhat close to, Arthur, Diana, and Mary Sue. Those were the ones that I had affiliation with. L: Anything else relating to the probate or the estate where you saw anything that was fraudulent or anything that didn't look right to you in the way that it was transferred or handled? J: Beyond what I told you, I don't know what else more wrong could happen. L: Let me ask you then, you mentioned that David Miscavige said that L. Ron Hubbard wasn't competent and they couldn't let him get on the stand, and he just wasn't well enough. Did L. Ron Hubbard get better after those times, did he get healthier? Did he get stronger? J: Never saw it, never had any indication. In fact, I think he got worse. L: He got worse. He was incompetent before, now, they say that L. Ron Hubbard signed a will on the day before he died, yet Miscavige say Hubbard was incompetent. J: Another thing in my mind now. Norman Starkey knows how to perfectly forge L. Ron Hubbard's signature. L: Norman Starke knows how to perfectly forge... How do you know? J: And so does David Miscavige because he showed me. He wrote his signature. David Miscavige wrote his signature. David Miscavige could write his signature perfectly. L: They actually could do a perfect forgery of L. Ron Hubbard's signature? J: Yeah. L: Do you know that they ever did forge L. Ron Hubbard's signature? J: He was showing me that he could, David Miscavige did mention to me that he had done it before. L: He had forged L. Ron Hubbard's signature. I guess what I'm asking, I'm hearing... J: This was right around, or shortly after the probate thing, because... Now you're reminding me of something. Let me talk. You are reminding me of a time when L. Ron Hubbard was supposed to sign something, I mentioned this in my declaration that David Miscavige was the person that could do the seals, the... what is it? L: Notary. J: Notary public, a notary public. He took all of that stuff. What he was showing me, telling me that if he had to go off to some place to get LRH to sign something was when he was telling me that he could write LRH's signature, and showed me he could do it. L: They claim that L. Ron Hubbard wrote a will the night before he died, changing all of his beneficiaries, changing his estate, and yet... J: I don't believe it. Lenskes got together and did that, and I believe that if anything needed to be signed, David Miscavige signed it. L: OK. Let's assume that didn't happen. You're getting these reports that L. Ron Hubbard is not competent, that he's mentally not well, and he's taking all these drugs. Do you think, let's just conjecture, I'm wondering how a man David Miscavige says is not competent can sign a will when he's not competent. J: This is why it's my belief that he never signed a will. Either Norman Starkey, and I don't think Norman did it because he'd had to then sign his own name as an executor of the estate, which he was. I think probably David Miscavige signed it, because he could do it perfectly. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw him write L. Ron Hubbard's signature, and you know this other thing. They would even brag about it, you know, they would sell these copies of books that had LRH's signature on it. Norman was writing that. They would laugh about it. Tell these people, you're buying this book L. Ron Hubbard signed it, and it was Norman and them signing them. L: You mean the books. J: The Battlefield Earth books. L: for like $2,000 or $3,000 or $5,000 for hand signed copies. J: LRH did not sign them. L: That was a fraud? J: Fraud. L: It was an art fraud in a sense, for hundreds of thousands of dollars of art fraud on people who thought they were buying original copies... J: Yeah, because so many people wanted to buy it, and I was sitting in the office with David and Norman, it's like there ain't no way in hell LRH's going to sign this shit, we'll sign it. The comment was, "We'll never get him to sign this." L: Dr. Dink, at the time of L. Ron Hubbard's death, was L. Ron Hubbard's physician. Dr. Dink was the one bringing up all these prescriptions and giving him the medication. J: And doing "research" with L. Ron Hubbard. They would discuss different types of drugs, what the drugs would do. Gene Dink would get the drugs, let him do what he wanted. He was the guinea pig, L. Ron Hubbard was the guinea pig. L: He was making himself his own guinea pig? J: Right. L: For drug therapy? J: Right. L: For the man who doesn't allow drugs for any members of the church of Scientology. Did Dink keep, do know if he kept medical records on L. Ron Hubbard's condition? J: If he did I nee saw them. L: Would Dink know if L. Ron Hubbard was competent? J: He would know, whether or not he would say is another thing, because he was in the deep pockets. Like I say, a trip was financed for him to go to Vegas, he was given money to go gamble. L: The church of Scientology gave the doctor of L. Ron Hubbard... J: Money to go gamble in Vegas, immediately after he passed. L Immediately after he left. J: After he was dead, I'm talking about now he's dead, now they do whatever they do. Now he's up in Vegas gambling. L: The personal physician of this guy. How long was Dink Hubbard's personal physician? J; For as long as I knew, starting from '82. L: From '82 to '87. Did he have other patients, or was he just dedicated to L. Ron Hubbard? Was this his person physician? J: I think he had other patients, other Scientology patients. L: Would you say that L. Ron Hubbard may have been his most important patient? J: That would be speculation on my part, but I think he was his most rich and influential patient. L: So, his patient dies, changes wills on the night before he dies. J: He goes to Vegas to gamble. L: And he goes to money to gamble on money given to him by the church? J: Right. L; Do you have any idea how much money? J: I think maybe $10,000. L; $10,000 was given to Dink to go to gamble in Las Vegas. J: Mike Eldridge related that story to me, and Rick Aznaran. L: What was their position at the time? J: Well, Mike Eldridge went up there after he was already dead, but the body was still at the property, so did Rick Aznaran. Dink was there. They went to another property in Vegas after the death. They sent Dink and some other people there, away from that scene, and Dink went to gamble and Rick and I believe it was Mike stayed at the Las Vegas property, just kind of watching over Dink. L: Why would they watch over Dink? What would they be worried about? Why would you watch over the physician? J: I don't know, but they were like entertaining him. It's all secret, secret cars, secret locations, tailing him, the elaborateness they would go through to keep these things secret. L: But L. Ron Hubbard's dead, why would you worry about the physician's doing? J: I have no idea. L: Is Dink still in the church now? J: I have no idea. L: Anything else? Do you know of anyone who was there when Hubbard died, physically died? Have you heard anyone talk who may have been a witness to his death? J: Ray Mithoff. L: Ray Mithott was there. Anyone else? J: David Miscavige. L: David Miscavige was there when he died J: Norman Starkey, Pat Broeker, Annie Broeker, Sarge and Pooh. L: Sarge and Pooh, you don't know their last names? J: Those were the ones that were there, and some hired people, some hired hands I guess. L: Were there any attorneys there? J: I can't say. L: You never heard if any attorneys were there. J: What I will tell you when, let me speak, just before he died, it was like his death was known. Certain people disappeared already, before it was announced he was dead. Ray Mithoff disappeared, David Miscavige disappeared, Norman Starkey disappeared, for at least 3 or 4 days prior to L. Ron Hubbard being dead. Because we were wondering where the hell they were. Vicky and I were wondering, where are these people. Suddenly Ray is woken up in the middle of the night, he's given a bran new vehicle, a Bronco, a Ford Bronco and told to go there, and no one can know what he's doing. The next thing you know, when he comes back, L Ron Hubbard's dead. So there was a 3 or 4 day period prior to L. Ron Hubbard being dead where certain people that disappeared and the later story was that they were there when it happened. L: Is it possible that Hubbard had died and they went after he died? Is there anything that would make you think that from anything you've ever seen or heard inside Scientology? J: Anything is possible. L: I'm asking whether you saw or heard anything that would make one believe that Hubbard may have been dead when they woke up Mithoff and everybody went there after he died. J: I can speculate that, but Ray Mithoff said he was auditing him when he went there. Who knows what happened, I don't have any... No one said to me, or no one ever gave me the idea that he had already been dead. L: Have you heard anything about when he signed his will? Have you heard anybody discuss the time when he changed his will? Nothing at all. Let's keep going with our list. J: OK. [Reading] "Spanky Pena, specifically mentioned that when she was on the RPF she had a 3 pound baby. She had to rush to the hospital, the medical office said to tell the hospital that she was indignant so that Scientology wouldn't have to pay the bill. Indigent! So that Scientology would not have to pay the bill. This was a Medicare fraud case." I know that Spanky was on RPF, I know she had it very difficult, I know the way she was treated. The thing with Medicare, I can only believe my own personal story, as far as being there and having that firsthand knowledge, no. [Pause] The guy that was run over by the truck riding his bicycle. L: Was that Shaeffer? J: Yeah, Bob Schafner, we already talked about that. L: Let me ask you a question did you ever hear of any other accidents involving staff members or people in Scientology. J: Yes, Kevin cut his damn fingers off, only had 3 fingers left. Kevin True. L: Kevin True. Was this related... J: Had to be flown by helicopter out. He was in RTC. L: Could this have been related to.. J: He was doing ethics and was doing conditions and he was doing amends L: No sleep... [TAPE ENDS; CONTINUED ON TAPE 4] |
